A life of vice or virtue?

Great Debates
41

Scary. I suppose you’re right. I just don’t find fulfillment in living for other people. I like to be with people and help them and do good things…but i also like going to spas and on vacation and going shopping. A life of Mother Theresa doesn’t seem joyful.

I used to have rock strong faith. I had FAITH that I would get married and have family one day…just like my parents and their parents and their parents.

didn’t happen

I had FAITH that my talents would be put to good use

Haven’t.

I had FAITH that when I was unemployed last year, I would find an even better job, a more fulfilling one.

didn’t.
I had faith that these things would happen because I’m a good person who works hard and follows the rules. Meanwhile people who rape and murder and steal and cheat are living happily, with children and husbands and jobs they love.

Makes no sense.

42

Well, in theory, your faith should be that those people will be punished, and you will be rewarded, in the afterlife, which is infintely more time than our mortal lives.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with not being a Mother Theresa. I mean, everyone has to have some fun. The most important thing is being a good person and sticking to your morals - have faith that god will judge you based on your good actions, and love you.

I don’t know, this is a sticky area because I’m not Christian, maybe talking to a priest with your concerns would be better for you. :slight_smile: They are generally an understanding lot to bounce ideas off of, and after all, they are there to answer your questions about god.

43

Nothing is guaranteed just because you are a good person. Look at the story of the testing of Job. The exact same things are worth more to some people than to others. I am sure you have things that other people envy, things that are less fleeting than jobs or such, like a loving husband, like intelligence, and so on. It is ok to like things of the material world, but you should not abandon your faith over them.

Nothing worthwhile is ever easy. If there were no pain, we wouldn’t appreciate joy as much. To paint a beautiful picture, you must use dark colors for contrast.

I won’t say you will have a family someday, but if you do, you will cherish them that much more because you truly kow their value, rather than those who have them without having to pay so much for them. Your life will ultimately be happier than it would have been if you hadn’t struggled to get what you want, because you will appreciate it.

You should try to have faith that God has a plan for you that will bring you happiness in the long haul, and that he knows the path better than you do. What may seem to be what you want may not be the best in the long term.

44

Want to pull some text that promises rewards on Earth? The rewards for faith and obediance are in the afterlife. I’ll drop a couple of applicable quotes myself:

Notice a pattern? I think that Earthly suffering is part of the deal according to the Bible. You aren’t promised happiness, but rather, through faith, the strength to deal with your burdens and suffering. In this way you share in the sufering of Christ, and prove yourself worthy of Eternal Life in heaven. Personally, I feel this god seems sadistic as fuck, especially if he is omipotent and could alleviate all suffering simply by thinking about it, but that is neither here nor there. Your religion does not guarantee in any way that life on Earth will be pleasant.

This is simply not true. I have experienced all of those things.

DaLovin’ Dj

45

Now come on, did you really think I wouldn’t be able to find any? When I say rewards, I think you’re mistaking me for thinking of money, cars a big house and a boob job. What I’m looking for is the pure joy of altruism, the pleasure at being selfless. I don’t feel that, though it seems I should.

Anyway, here’s some verses (bolding mine):
Trust in the Lord and do good; so you will live in the land, and enjoy security. Take delight in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him, and he will act. Be still before the Lord, and wait patiently for him. (Psalm 37:3-5, 7a)
Bless the Lord, O my soul, and do not forget all his benefits—who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases, who redeems your life from the pit and crowns you with love and compassion,who satisfies your desires with good things so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s. (Psalm 103:2-5)

Do not be afraid, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. (Luke 12:32)
You show me the path of life. In your presence there is fullness of** joy**; in your right hand are pleasures forevermore. (Psalm 16:11)

But let all who take refuge in you be glad; let them ever sing for joy. Spread your protection over them, that those who love your name may rejoice in you. Psalm 5:11
I will be glad and rejoice in you; I will sing praise to your name, O Most High. Psalm 9:2

You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand. Psalm 16:11

The precepts of the LORD are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the LORD are radiant, giving light to the eyes. Psalm 19:8

and finally:

You turned my wailing to dancing; you removed my sackcloth and clothed me with joy
Psalm 30:11

46

IANAC but I think you might just poassibly missconstrued the interpretations
>>>It could be read that one who takes to heart the christian teachings and practices good works and charity will recieve the desires of their heart, that is that a true believer will desire the good for his fellow man and by doing it, his heart will be fullfiled.

In that light none of your examples really say you will be rewarded with earthly riches.

I too enjoy the simple pleasures in life, but on the rare occasions that I am able to bring a little joy into the life of another I find it more satisfying, and I am not even religious.

47

I always got the impression from the Bible that Christians were supposed to be happy because they were going to heaven instead of dying, kind of like the happy you are when you avoid a terrible car accident. And worshipping God was supposed to make you happy too. But being happy because you do good things seemed a very distant third at best in the NT.

I think there’s a lot more about how Christians will suffer because of Jesus but will be rewarded for all their suffering in heaven. Actually, the MORE you suffer the luckier you are supposed to be, because then you’ll get even better stuff later.

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

48

jarbabyj, you are not the first person to feel this way, by any means; it’s at least as old as Psalm 73 and Ecclesiastes. I’ve been through a period not totally unsimilar to what you’re expressing—and maybe I shouldn’t say “been through,” because that implies that I’m done with it now and have everything all figured out, which sure as hell isn’t the case. But I’ve been through some pretty dark years that tested my faith, years when I desperately craved and needed what I did not have, when I couldn’t see much point in faith or virtue or living right or maybe even living at all.

My faith got sifted and purified, and some of it didn’t survive. I do not have faith in easy answers or simple rules about how life works. I don’t believe that life is fair, at least on a scale that I can see from my limited perspective. I don’t believe I’ll ever be completely and permenantly happy, satisfied, or fulfilled in this lifetime. I sure don’t believe God’s going to make things easy for me or see to it that I have what I want. But I do have faith in God, a loving God who is not a sadistic SOB. I have faith that life is worth living and has meaning. I don’t believe that all I’ve been through and experienced (or failed to experience) has been specifically planned out by God, but I do have faith that everything can be made to serve a purpose and to somehow make me a better or deeper or stronger person, that nothing need have been wasted. I believe in good and evil, and that it is better to be good—though that doesn’t always necessarily mean playing by “the rules” or keeping my hands clean.

I now have a fair amount of happiness, peace, hope, and, yes, faith, though not faith that particular things will happen to me. For instance, I yearn to be happily married and have a family, and I do have some reasonable hope that this will happen, someday, sooner or later. But maybe it won’t; I’m not pinning my faith on it, and I don’t have any guarantees that it will. I don’t even believe necessarily that “everything has a purpose” or “it will all work out for the best”—what does that even mean, anyway? But I do have faith in God’s ultimate goodness and grace, both in general and toward me.

49

This is not meant to be taken as an attack, just as something to think about…

You said, speaking of “jerks”:

Yet 40 minutes later, you say:

and

Just have a look at the consistent theme running through your posts in this thread. Why do you think that living your life the way you’ve chosen to should be rewarded? Why do you expect a reward? After all, you chose out of all the possible options to live this way, and surely you understand every choice has its own pros and cons? If you wanted to live a different way, there’s nothing stopping you, but you think you’re entitled to certain rewards because of your own decisions to act a certain way.

Jarbaby, are you being nice and doing all the ‘right’ things because you think you’re supposed to/ will be rewarded, or are you doing it because you actually ARE nice and it comes naturally?

50

I just said in the above post that I’m not interested in using God to make me Wealthy or Beautfiul or Filled with Material Things which is what “Earthly Riches” are comprised of.

I’m interested in a life of virtue and selflessness making me feel like a better person, to achieve a sort of nirvana at the pleasure of being good…but when someone cut me off in traffic on my way home tonight I felt like giving him the finger.

Sometimes I want to hug them. Sometimes I want to punch folks in the face. If I didn’t believe in consequence or comeuppance or some sort of karma…I COULD punch people in the face.

The Marquis De Sade proposed a life of living for oneself. To act as NATURE does. Do what you want with no regard of the effect on others. I don’t like your face, I punch you. I want your ice cream, I take it. What would there be to worry about if you didn’t have any regard for others?

I don’t know. My brain is going all over the place.

51

Ick. Well obviously I’m not NATURALLY nice, since I get mad at people in traffic, or feel the urge to physically fight people when they frustrate me. I have to work at being good. I want to be a good girl. It’s that simple. I would like to leave a legacy of people saying “Jessica was kind and fun and compassionate and a good person”.

But I don’t want it to also mean I was miserable. I don’t want it to be that I was a sucker to be taken care of.

It’s my belief that God loves us humans and wants us to rejoice and be filled with happiness. And guess what? I’m not.

I’m just wondering when anything I do will result in some sort of joy.

52

I confess to being a little confused about this: after starting this thread, based on a conversation in a different thread, you’re continuing to behave, IMO, in a very not-nice fashion there. To wit:

Note that this is to a person who has never been rude to you, despite your repeated insults toward her. Sure, she said some things in her OP that bothered you, and justifiably so. Since then, however, she’s ignored repeated barbs from you. It really comes across like you, far from trying to be a nice person in a world surrounded by jerks and being upset that there’s no percentage in being nice, are trying to pick a fight with a nice person and getting upset that she won’t oblige you with a good old knockoutdragdown.

Like I said before, it’s one thing to avoid letting folks take advantage of you. It’s quite another thing to go out of your way to be nasty to people. Not letting folks take advantage of you isn’t vice; being vicious is.

Daniel

53

I dunno, I kinda like that. Naughty. Feisty. Mrau.

If you’re really concerned about your faith, I still say go speak to a local priest. It is the best way to discuss issues of your faith, since they are used to it, expect it, and are trained for it.

54

This not meant to be mean, just a suggestion…

Maybe when you stop wallowing in self pity and do something for someone else for the sheer joy of being a benefit to a fellow being. Hell, do something for a worm or a snail as long as you do it to benefit them and not yourself.

It sounds like you are unhappy with the cards life has dealt you. We all (I suspect) have these feelings. Unlike most people you at least are exploring those feelings. Keep in mind that none of us, not even the most devout religious, KNOW what awaits us after death. They may have faith but faith is not knowledge.

I am not saying that people should devote themselves to serving strangers, just that true pleasure in life, at least to me, comes not from material gain (I admit enjoying material pleasure) but from being a benefit to our fellow beings, and increasing my undefrstanding. God knows I rareley achieve what I am suggesting, just offering my worthless observations, in the hope that they help. It is your life, heavan or hell, it is what you make of it. If you sacrifice this one in the hope of another in the future, you’re screwed if there is not another one. You have my best wishes.

55

Jarbabyj, thank you for this thread. It is thought-provoking and it is an issue that I continue to grapple with.

These are some of the things that have helped me. So consider this as “advice to myself.” If you find something of value, you are welcome to it.

  1. Stop confusing virtue with selflessness. Giving to other is virtuous. Denying yourself special treats and celebrations and pampering is to mistreat one of God’s children. You are worthy of time and consideration too.

  2. Cut yourself some slack. You are not required to be perfect. You have been created as a human being and you are stuck with that for a while. No human being gets her shit together once and for all. I believe that self-forgiveness is important.

  3. Don’t be so concerned about trying to change others. You are never going to be able to get the jerks of this world to behave as you would wish. It is your response that matters. If you don’t rent them space in your head, their rudeness to you doesn’t matter. You can choose your emotions more than you think. Ultimately, forgive them. As a Christian, it is required of you.

  4. Sometimes, speaking up is the right thing to do. Sometimes it is about major issues – political and social. Sometimes it is to let people know where my personal boundaries are. Sometimes it is to stop the dissemination of misinformation.

  5. When you do acts of kindness, let it be free of expectations. “Do the right thing.” Then let go of it. Having expectations of others is so often what leads to hurt and disappointment.

  6. Be as creative as possible in as many ways as possible. Write. Draw. Make beads. Learn carpentry. Make perfumes. Design a house. Try things you’ve never done before.

  7. As often as possible, ask an elderly person what things were like when they were young, how they met their true loves, what advice they have.

Two of my favorite quotations come to mind. Since you are so forthright and honest, this reminds me of you, Jarbabyj:

“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” – Ralph W. Emerson

“Be the change that you want to see.” – Gandhi

56

By the way, has anybody here read Nick Hornby’s novel How To Be Good? It explores many of the same issues as this thread, in ways that are both thought-provoking and verry funny. Hornby stays away from religious answers a lot more than this thread has, though, and as a result can’t come up with a very satisfying resolution (IMHO).

57

Well, part of that is my problem that i stated in the OP. It’s dealing with Fairness and refraining from trying to alert people to their jerkishness.

In my opinion, in that thread, NinjaChick still hasn’t admitted that she’s being a jerk to her fellow classmates. She’s being rude and arrogant and selfish. It’s not FAIR to me that she gets to be that way and gets praise for it for being a tough, wonderful person.

When I’m mean to someone, or arrogant, it sticks with me for DAYS. I agonize about it. If I pit someone out of a momentary rage of passion I regret it almost immediately. It EATS at me.

It doesn’t bother Ninjachick at all to be arrogant and mean to her friends. Life must be a lot more carefree when you don’t care what anyone thinks.
Bottom line is this (and I thought about it last night in the tub): I want to be a good person. I really want to be someone that is remembered as good, and compassionate and selfless. But for me, it’s a constant uphill battle to be that way, I mean like ROCK CLIMBING hard. It doesn’t come naturally. I am an overly sensitive, defensive, and tattle tale type person. When I see people just letting loose and doing whatever they feel, oblivious to consequence, I’m jealous that they are so comfortable in their own skin. I’d like to be comfortable in my own skin.

58

I agree with you about the asskicking( opps did I just bow before entering homeroom?) ninja, but she is 17, so her smugness and arogance do not really offend just kind of makes me smile, and wish I was 17 again.

I really agree that it is frustrating being the type of person who agonizes over instances of anger or rudeness. I also agree that it is frustrating that so many people seem to be able to be crass boring asses without a care in the world. They are confident in their superiority, while people like me (doubt there are many, not that being like me is a good thing) are constantly tormented by concern about the correctness of my actions. I still regret something I did over 20 years ago. It sometimes keeps me up nights. I have gone so far as to hire a PI to find the person so I could apologize.

But one thing that struck me about your post is that you want to be remembered as a good person. Maybe its just me being pedantic, but I think that is still a selfish desire. In my opinion (which is worth absolutely nothing) doing good must be done for it’s own sake. Virtue is being a good person, not being good so we will be remembered as good.

59

Well, I think I phrased it wrong. I’m not saying that I’m looking for a monument or praise for being good…but just that the example of my life is one of fun, kindness and general goodness.

I don’t want people to say “That jessica, she was loaded with cash!” or “Boy did she know how to drink!” or “She was a worthless old bag” when they’re at my funeral.

A big part of my faith is trying to live as an example of my Christianity, and when I fail at that (often) I spend a great deal of time kicking myself for it, which leads to more frustration. It would be nice to not have to consider and reconsider everything I do.

60

So you wish you could make other people, like you, who have a conscience and a sense of right and wrong, jealous and uncomfortable?

When I see someone acting like a jerk, I’m not jealous. I look down on them. I see how they are making other people around them uncomfortable and angry, and I think, “Boy, I better make sure I never act like that asshole,” because I’d rather have the friendship and respect of people around me than have my way all the time. There are often hidden benefits to accepting a loss, as well as many obvious risks in being a jerk.

And, there might be other ways to point out that someone is being a jerk than ripping into them in a Pit thread. Maybe would be better to offer some gentle advice to NinjaChick, by saying that maybe it’s possible she’s enjoying all the attention she gets from people about her martial arts stuff, positive and negative, and maybe she might want to consider keeping her light under a bushel, just a bit, to avoid seeming like a show-off.

I think that is just as effective in pointing out, “Hey, sweetheart, we’re on to your little game,” as calling her arrogant and rude. But if you phrase it in a helpful manner, you don’t have to beat yourself up over it as much. It goes back to the Golden Rule. I, like you, would like someone to point out if I’m being a jerk, and point it out in a way I can’t miss—but I’d rather it be as a helpful (though stinging, if need be) suggestion, rather than an out-and-out attack.

Are you primarily interested in trying to change the jerk’s behavior, or are you trying to mete out justice and punishment?