A life of vice or virtue?

this is a good question, and I don’t like my answer, but it’s truthful. When someone hurts my feelings, or my friends’ or family, I feel like it’s up to me to
‘show them what it’s like’. You say something mean about me? I’ll say something mean about you and now how does it feel? It’s like that parenting method to stop biting. If your kid bites you, you bite them on the arm and then they know it hurts. And then they stop biting. So when I lash out, it’s because I feel someone, sometimes me, sometimes someone else, has been hurt. And it feels like acting gently towards them doesn’t adequately convey my disappointment.

I don’t know. It’s hard to think about.

Actually, I think you’re missing something. She HAS been chastized, gently, by myself and other people. But the thing is, a lot of us think she’s committed a pretty minor sin, all things considered; it seems to me that the more we say that, the angrier you get at her, and the less slack you cut her on anything she says. Most recently, when she expressed that she hoped someone wasn’t trying to date her, you were very nasty to her.

What on earth is wrong with that? Every day there’s unrequited attraction that happens. On the few times I’ve been at the receiving end of it, it’s very uncomfortable: I hate it when people I find oogy are attracted to me. Creeps me out. That’s not arrogance, that’s not rudeness; that’s just one normal reaction to the situation.

It seems that you’re mostly upset by the unfairness that other people don’t agree with you on how awful a person Ninjachick is, and you’re trying to draw other people into agreement by increasingly unwarranted attacks on her character.

Maybe, considering the reaction other folks are having, you should step back and reevaluate? If nobody else seems to think that she’s been a horrible person, maybe you should consider whether you were overhasty in your initial reaction?

You’re not defending anyone there; instead, you’re attacking someone who, to her credit, is refusing to engage with you. I said there that I cut people slack sometimes based on their age, and that’s true; but in this case, I’d be taking you to task even if you were fourteen.

Daniel

Because in my mind, anyone who tries to be nice and make a connection with a human being doesn’t deserve that sort of looking down the nose “Oh god, why are you TALKING to me” sort of treatment. YMMV.

In this case it’s a case of me being snubbed by people in highschool who didn’t think I was worthy of their time and you know what? It hurts. A LOT. I don’t think Ninjachick realizes how much it hurts someone to say “I hope you’re not trying to date me because you’re oogy”. I don’t know…it struck a chord.

Fine. I will stay out of it. But I stay on record as hoping she grows up someday.

You wish that jerks would be held accountable for their jerkish actions. But a desire for fairness can turn into a desire for vengence. And vengence is not something that nice people seek, and it is not something that makes good people happy. Good people are happy if the jerk changes. Good people feel a nagging twinge of guilt if the jerk is humiliated-- a nagging guilt that can seriously interfere in their pursuit of happiness.

If person X chastises person Y in a hurtful, sarcastic manner, person Y probably will not think of his own behavior. Person Y will attacked and get defensive. He will think of what a jerk X must be to start a witch hunt over something so minor. From X’s genuine desire to stop Y from hurting others, nothing is accomplished except that Y also gets hurt. If hurting people is bad, why hurt anyone?

If person X brings something to Y’s attention gently and tactfully (and boy is gentle tact a gift I wish I had), Y will not feel defensive and attacked, and then may focus on his own behavior. And if X drops the matter completely, maybe Y will reevaluate his behavior on his own someday, and X’s life will be a bit less stressful.

Anyway, I also have a tendency to gossip and gloat and wish justice on those who harm me and mine, but I’m working on it because it doesn’t make me happy. It doesn’t make me feel good about me. I’m happiest when I’m concentrating on me. I’m happiest when I listen to my conscience instead of trying to figure out what I can expect back for each good deed.

My stepfather used to say to me, “Don’t worry about what Brother does; worry about what sugaree does.” God, I fucking hated that; I’d roll my eyes every time. But it might have been the wisest thing he ever said.

I understand that feeling, but I’m going to tell you what I tell myself. It’s not your job to show people what it’s like, or to mete out justice. It’s your job to show them what it’s like to find a better way, and to have someone react in a new, different, better way. And one of the fun parts of treating people better than they expect you to is the way it so often surprises them; you’re turning the tables on them and confusing them.

Usually, of course, they won’t notice that there is a better, more loving way to do things. But it’s not your job to force them to notice; you’re just supposed to provide the example, should it be wanted. And we never, ever know who is watching and paying attention when we think they aren’t. The jerk in question may not learn, but someone else might.

And no, it doesn’t come naturally (at least not to me). But the starting point is wanting to be a better person. Then, you act in the way you ought to–in effect, you pretend to be the person you want to be, and you keep your grumbles to yourself. Gradually, the self-discipline of making yourself do what you know you should do helps to turn you into that person.

Not, of course, that I am particularly good at all this, but I’m working on it. I think we all have our cycles of hope and discouragement in faith, and a big part of faith is holding on when it feels like everything’s unfair. I’ve found a lot of enjoyment lately in rereading some of C S Lewis’ writings; he’s so forthright about things. “Yep, life is tough. People are jerks. You’re a jerk to someone else, too, so quit it. You’re supposed to know better.”

Some of the most faithful, happiest, best people I know are the ones who have really tough circumstances. The ones who you wonder how they even survive, and hope you can be like that someday (though without the trials). Only it’s usually the hard things that have made them like that–you don’t exercise your spiritual muscles by having things easy. Oh, well, I’m just rambling…

(And lastly, FWIW, I’ve done the infertility thing too; I know how it feels. I can sympathize with where you’re coming from.)

First, that was MY paraphrase, not hers; if she ever told someone that in so many words, of COURSE she should be criticized for it. However, the only person we know she expressed such a sentiment to is us on the boards – in fact, she appeared not even to realize that there was a possibility that the questioners were romantically interested in her. This is exactly what I mean when I say that you’re not cutting her any slack.

Secondly, I’m also aware of the pain of unrequited attraction. It’s happened to a lot of people. That doesn’t mean I’m vicious toward someone on the receiving end of it.

Finally, I agree that I hope she grows up someday: given that she’s a teenager and the only alternative is to hope that she dies, it’s an easy thing to agree with.

Daniel

Well, I think you know what I mean. No need to get snarky. I know plenty of folks that grow older without growing up at all. One of them is a good friend of mine.

Excellent post! The good news is that your religion has provided some good tools for you to overcome this problem.

Pray. If you pray for the strength to deal with unpleasant people, that help will definitely come to you. YOUR heart is in the right place, so good karma is sticking to you like glue. How about starting off with this book? It’s really informative:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0071410228/qid=1080320752/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-3827672-7436635?v=glance&s=books

You never really have to worry too much about other people. God/karma will always be fair! If someone is a jerk, let them continue walking along that path. Help if you can–if not, goodbye. Don’t send them off with anger, hate, or hopes that they will “get theirs.” Just blow 'em a kiss and be done with them.

When people do good things, however, tell them so! Don’t keep your light under a bushel basket. Remember that you were sent by the Divine him/herself on a mission just for YOU. You were sent to be a teacher and a guide to others. When others are not at your level, don’t get angry. Keep in mind that they are not as enlightened as you are. Pray for them, too.

You will be OK. Prayer is key. Prayer is key!

Hurting somebody doesn’t seem to me to be a good way to show them that hurting people is wrong. It seems more likely to make them want to hurt you back. They get mad at you, and now in their mind the situation is your fault, and they don’t assign the blame where it belongs: their own bad behavior.

I don’t know how much I agree with the biting-the-kid thing, either, but I can maybe see it being a reasonable when the kid is not capable of understanding words, when they won’t understand, “Hey, that hurts,” and have to be shown. But when dealing with adults, you should be able to say, “What you said hurt my (or someone else’s) feelings,” and have them know what that means rather than saying, “You’re a bitch!” to hurt their feelings. The former response might seem wussy—admitting your weakness and all that—but I find that it stops people in their tracks. Maybe they’ll just say, “Well, I don’t care,” or “You’re a big whiner!” or whatever, but if they’re that sort of person, will the momentary sting of an insult really be that much more effective? Or will it just give them the confrontational interaction and drama they thrive on?

And of course “You hurt my feelings” can be camoflaged: “I wonder why you would say something like that to me in front of everyone? I wish you’d chosen to make your criticism in private.” “Whoa, there! I think you could be more sensitive to Susan’s feelings!” “We are worried that if this behavior continues, you’ll be creating a lot of friction within the team.”

The stuff that is worth thinking about often is. It’s been my experience that I’ve discoverd a long and dearly held erroneous belief when I get that squiggly oogy don’t-wanna-think-about-that feeling. All in all, I prefer my self-improvement to come in a flash of pure insight out of the blue, but more often you have to claw your way through some scary internal muck to acheive an epiphany.

Well, I can’t advise from a religious standpoint, but here’s my approach to it. (I’m a person who generally tries to be decent but has a tendency to respond poorly to perceived idiocy. Like I call people idiots.)

When I call someone an idiot, it doesn’t help convince them that they’re an idiot. In fact, I have NEVER seen someone respond well to harsh criticism. It just gets their back up. So, when you find yourself emitting flame from various orfices, just pause, take a breath, and apologise for breathing flame. Think of it as an apology to yourself, for letting your temper get the better of you. Then (while they’re still mollified) promptly explain courteously what part of their behavior is pissing you off. Without emitting flame. Keep in mind that if you let them get riled up again, then they won’t be listening to your brilliant and compelling arguments anyway, so openly accussing or insulting them can only hurt your case.

As to the ‘random asshole’, who cuts you off, tries to take advantage of you, is just generally rude:

  1. Remember you’re better than that. Be smug if you have to, but keep in mind that you’d like yourself even less if you were the asshole. Lest you forget and start acting like one.

  2. Give people the benefit of the doubt exactly once. Needing someone to take care of your cat is one thing. Thinking that you’ve discovered a free cat-sitter is another. In the interests of being nice, I’ll risk being taken advantage of once, but I see no compelling reason to let somebody take advantage of me twice. (Note that this method yieds good results in the prisoner’s dillema.) Provisions for forgiveness could be offered if you like (I don’t, generally), and keep in mind that each person is a new start. Who knows, they might be nice, so you don’t want to miss out on them by assuming the worst without a reason.

  3. I admit that the above is a violation of the ‘turn the other cheek’ policy. However, I think you’re only supposed to do that if you can be genuinely happy with your choice to do so. Rule of thumb: if you don’t want to turn your other cheek, then don’t, but don’t slap back. Until you can freely accept the idea of giving them your coat as well, better to do it halfway than not at all.

  4. There is no 4. (Sorry I couldn’t resist.)

  5. Try not to let it get to you. If you handled yourself in a way that you can admire, or at least be mildly supportive of, then that’s all that you need to remember. Being Christian, you ought to be able to accept that it’s not your job to exact punitive damages on the random assholes™ of the world; they’ll get theirs when the scales are balanced in the end. That being the case, you don’t need to sweat the small stuff. As long as you don’t regret your own behavior, you can just sigh, shake your head, and get on with life.

Of course, YMMV, but good luck,
Bill

The philosophy that works for me is the knowledge that I cannot change anyone’s behavior. I’m in the 12 item or less line, someone ahead of me has a full cart. Imagine I toss him into the air and he swears never to do that again. Would that matter? Is that guy the only violater of the 12 item law? No. I was fired from a job three years ago. Imagine I threaten the person who fired me with violence, or give her a million dollars, or write a tearful letter. Could I make her feelings change? Would she really feel and believe that firing me was wrong? No. Do I have any means of controlling the thoughts, emotions and behavior of others? No. (Of course, this belief doesn’t prevent me from calling the police if I see someone driving dangerously or assaulting someone.)

With friends, it can be tricky. Using your pot-luck example: five people get together but it all depends on one person handling the details. If it were me, I’d weigh the options. Will I enjoy the potluck, even if I did the arranging, or will that keep me from enjoying it? If I don’t handle the details, will there be no potluck? If so, is that OK with me? Those are my choices – choices others might make are not mine to decide.

I have my standards on how I should behave. If I meet them, that’s great, no matter what someone else might think. If I don’t, again, it doesn’t matter what someone else might think. There are people that I listen to and get support from - but I don’t extend that option to everyone I pass on the street. It seems to me, jarbabyj, that you’re stuck with being a good person and the struggles that includes.

I guess my struggle then is that I know SOME people CAN change behavior. My sister and I were hellions growing up and my parents simply said "no, you can’t act this way’ “no you can’t skip church” “no you can’t cut school” “no you can’t be a smartass to adults…IT’S WRONG BEHAVIOR”, and by god, we CHANGED our behavior and became better adults.

Of course people can change their own behavior. You can not change anyone else’s behavior. Children, of course, are very much influenced by others to change their own behavior; they are especially motivated by their parents and caretakers. If either you or your sister had any exceptional conditions–autism, OCD, mental retardation–your parents may have had less control over your behavior, right? And plenty of people rebel against their parents and reject their values anyway. Actually, I’d guess most of us do at least something that our parents find offensive.

Anyway, setting out to save the world and change the way people behave, in any but the most indirect way with the most modest goals, is an exercise in futility. But it brings up an interesting question. Which is the more nobler path: to struggle to change people’s behavior, or to struggle to accept people as they are?

Yes - children are a special case. It is the responsibility of parents to bring them up “right.” Of course, your parents did not say, “oh, jarbabyj is 8 years old and totally beyond our control. We give up.” If they had, you wouldn’t be in this spot.

Yes - notice they didn’t do an eye for an eye to get through to you. They did not give you a taste of your own medicine to make you turn around. Also look at how much perseverence and how much time and effort it took them. You can’t do that for strangers. You don’t have the time or the influence to change someone you don’t know. Even their parents couldn’t - what makes you think you could?

Hee hee, nice signature for a discussion about the futility of changing other people, Thinks2Much! :smiley:

As others have pointed out, parents are in a special position. Indeed, whenever you’ve got a clear and unambiguous position of authority over someone, it’s a special case.

You might be able even to cuss out an employee and effect a real change in behavior. But you’ll have a very difficult time changing the behavior of a stranger on the street or on a messageboard using vitriol.

Two comments about the other thread, one of which I hesitate to make, but I hope you’ll hear it in the spirit I intend it.

First, the easy comment: your latest post in that thread to Sturmhauke is, IMO (no way I can claim H :slight_smile: ), very reasonable, and exactly the sort of gentle admonishment that I think CAN be effective in helping people see where they may have acted in a less-than-graceful manner. It makes me happy to see that, and I hope that you’ll keep that attitude in that thread, because it’s far likelier to be effective and not to piss people off.

The harder comment: you say in the other thread that on my advice you’ve been limiting your participation in that thread. Is it fair to say that to some degree I’ve influenced you in this matter? If so, do you think you would have been equally influenced if instead of trying to address you respectfully, I’d been insulting and contemptuous toward you?

In other words, I think that even in these two threads, we see that honey is better than vinegar.

As I said before, I’m no angel at keeping my temper or being respectful; even in these two threads I fear I’ve crossed the line more than once. However, I think I’m more effective at communicating to someone whose behavior I disagree with when I don’t cross the line.

Daniel

I just wanted to extend a warm thank you to everyone in this thread. It’s a very complicated issue for me these past months, dealing with tough issues like death, sickness, infertility,joblessness…blah blah blah. But I’ve had enough pity and cyber hugs in my lifetime, and I just wanted to talk out some philosophies. (I’ve studied DeSade for a long time, if only to be able to dispell rumors about the nature of Sadism).

It would be easy to talk to a pastor, since my Uncle IS one, except he’s quite…fundamentalist and his answer to everything is just “give your troubles to God”. One sentence. And it doesn’t really…get anyone anywhere. My parents, the best Christians I know (great at making children, too :wink: ) have enough problems lately that I dont’ need to burden them with mine.

Although I do have a Christian faith, a strong one, I’m always open to learning the tenents of others, their philosophies and beliefs. I’m polyamorous in that regard. NAUGHTY!

I’ve got alot to consider this weekend, and you folks have helped. I know it wasn’t really much of a DEBATE, just kind of a ‘talking jarbaby down’ thread…but I hope some others were able to learn things.

Again. Thanks :slight_smile:

I guess I’m not convinced that the “jerks” win in life. Maybe small victories, but do their lives work out better?

Sure, I see the guy cut in at the end of the merge lane and think “jerk.” But usually I find myself catching up to that same jerk at the next exit. Really, what have they gained?

One of the things that has always bothered me about reality shows is that the dishonest schemers win a lot more than they would in real life. Life doesn’t have a set end point, we don’t vote others out of the game, and only in rare circumstances do things have a zero sum outcome.

I see the managers who are incredibly successful at work. I wouldn’t say all of them are neccessarily the nicest people out there–but few are outright jerks. for the most part, they’re successful because they manage to make sure everyone comes out of a particular situation feeling they’ve gained something. Sure, we have some raging assholes, but they’re rarely successful for long. A large part of being successful in my workplace involves getting people who don’t work for you to help you with your projects. You can only do that so long if you’re a jerk. However, if you make everyone on the project realize it’s in their best interest for the project to succeed, they’ll help you out. And, if you build up favors in the unofficial favor bank, people will respond. Sure, the managers who rant and yell and get in people’s face do well for a while since everyone is afraid of them. But they don’t last long because no one will help them out when they feel they don’t have to.

The only time I see jerks succeeding is when they pair up with someone who is, for lack of a better term, a doormat. Doormat does not equal nice. Some doormats I know are downright mean–they just have no backbone to back up their meanness. (So they take it out on others the minute they’re actually in a position of power. Say, with a waiter, valet, etc.)

If someone takes advantage of you, you’re not a “jerk” or less than nice to refuse to allow that to continue. As others have said, give someone the benefit of the doubt once. Heck, give it to them a couple of times. But then stop when it becomes apparent that they’re using you. You don’t have to be a jerk and say “take care of your own damn cat.” Just say “sorry, I can’t do it this week, good luck finding someone else.”

And don’t sweat the small stuff. Sure, jerk driver cut in front of you. Has he or she really gained that much time? They’ve saved what? A car length or five? As I said, I’ve caught up to many of those drivers at the next light or exit.

Finally, you do gain some benefit by being nice–if only that it makes you feel good. I’ve let drivers in front of me who have obviously been caught unaware by a stalled vehicle in front of them or poorly marked construction. What do I gain? Well, I’m happy with myself for a while. When I drop money in a charity donation box, no one knows and I don’t gain anything other than some personal satisfaction. But that’s something that makes me feel good about myself–and I like to feel good about myself. Many people don’t. Most true “jerks” that I know really don’t like themselves much. I wonder why–could it be that they realize there’s very little to like? That’s a sad way to live.

I just love you! Think what an advantage that self-knowledge and honesty are to you! They are a good leg-up for your rock climbing.

Give up the need to control the thoughts and feelings of others. You will never feel centered or comfortable in your skin if your focus is on them. Find assertive ways to express your concerns rather than aggressive ways. Being assertive will make you feel stronger and more in control of yourself. When you are aggressive, you just feel hostile and guilty.

Here is a very general description of the differences in assertive and aggressive behaviors:

http://mimas.csuchico.edu/~ah24/comparison.htm

And this site has much more specific information (good stuff!):

http://www.uiowa.edu/~ucs/asertcom.html

(Notice that assertive behavior is also helpful to people who sit of their feelings too much.)

Any problems there? :smiley: