A note to the "Foodists" (aka Veggie Nazis)

Why do you think this is funny?

I have decided to turn from meat because it causes all sorts of stomach problems for me. I was raised in a house where we had meat at every dinner, so I never knew any different. I’m just plain sick of meat.

I only know one vegan, and she is comfortable with what she eats. But the really hipocritical thing I found about her is that she confessed that on the last day of her life she would eat steak and eggs because “it sounded really good.” Not a stereotype here, just saying that these people do exist.

The vegetarians I know are really physically healthy people. I never discuss why they are vegetarians because I DONT CARE! Why ask when you surely will annoy the piss out of them?

Oh, and JontheHasher, I am new here too. But I have seen enough to recognize that you shouldn’t rant about subjects you are not familiar with. All I ask is do your research before posting. Otherwise, take it to MPSIMS, where people are more likely to be sympathetic to your “veg” handicap.

Jon was prompted, I think, by a thread in GD opened by a vegan; one who claimed to be ‘genuiniely curious’ about omnivores, but who quickly turned himself into a laughingstock.

I reiterate: I DON’T care what people eat and I wish others would show a similar disinterest in what I eat!

I get a lot of questions about my diet, and consequently have had many discussions as to meat v. veggie. This was even moreso when I worked in a vegan kitchen. I’ve never had a problem with offensive behaviour in such discussions because the conversations are both inquisitive and explicitive rather than preachy and defensive. Vegetarianism, like any other “ism”, is a belief system, so when discussing it, one must be careful not to offend those who hold other beliefs, particularly if one hopes to bring hearts and minds over to one’s beliefs.

Though I must admit once having to flee a conversation when a tipsy fellow mistook me for his dinner and took a bite out of my arm (actually drew blood!) Darn carnivores . . . can’t trust 'em . . . best always bring along some kibble to throw their way if things get out of hand.

Not to mention exploitation of migrant (including underage) farm workers, and “organic” pesticides that end up leaching more chemicals into the water table (since, with many of them, it requires a greater volume to acheive the same effect as synthetics). Unless you farm your own stuff and pick the bugs off with tweezers with your own hands, there is no truly moral way to eat :smiley:

runforrestrun, the subject of people trying to force their morality on others is not one with which I am unfamiliar. Whether it’s food (I’ve been on the veggie side and the carnivore side), or environmental issues, or God, or whatever, I’ve had plenty of experience.

As far as the “where the topic belongs” issue, I’ve taken my lumps, thank you very much :stuck_out_tongue:

Really? Um, how do black olives become non-vegan? Am I missing something? Are they preserved in mutton fat or somethin’?:confused:

Sorry, can’t let this get by. Would you please elaborate and, perhaps, provide a cite for this assertion? I am somewhat familiar with the organic standards in my area (northeast US) and I truly cannot think of any approved insect management option that would meet the above description.

And I’m a little curious about the olives, myself. Is there some sort of fish oil in the brine or something?

Well, if you are a vegan, I’d stay clear of potato skins. <veg>

Sorry, it took me a while to get back.

I don’t have definite information on this (CRorex, do you?), but it wouldn’t surprise me if olives are “waxed” with something containing animal fat. Lots of veggies are “coated with a food grade oil to preserve [somethin’ or other]”, although I think in most cases it’s vegetable-based.

Then again, CRorex may be using the terms “vegan” and “organic” interchangeably.

Ok robinh, I need to look further into this one. I re-checked some of my sources (http://www.oldbridgechem.com/msdscuso4.html
http://ace.orst.edu/info/extoxnet/pips/coppersu.htm
http://www.wpi.edu/News/TechNews/010403/organic.shtml
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000002D21D.htm
http://antoine.fsu.umd.edu/chem/senese/101/environmental/faq/cuso4-toxicity.shtml), and there’s no way I can accuse the worst of them of being unbiased.
To summarize: You’ll notice that there are two Material Data Safety Sheets linked above, both for diffent forms of Copper Sulfate, and that one is much scarier than the other. Near as I can tell, the less-scary one is the one that is commonly used as a fungicide and slug-icide. Copper Sulfate in any form is very slow to break down, thereby making it more likely to leach into ground water eventually. It is also, however, very adsorbent to most soils, so it takes it a looooooong time. I can’t find any “pounds per square foot” usage data.

Some of the scarier “organic” pesticides (such as nicotene) are very toxic, but they break down pretty quickly.

One of my big problems is the different uses of the term “organic”. Chemists, OSHA, the EPA, etc, tend to use “organic” to mean “made of carbon compounds”, which would include most commercial pesticides, herbicides, slug-and-snailicides, etc. Environmental types, however, tend to use the term “organic” to mean “not synthetic”. Oh well. And never the twain shall meet…

Cecil posted a fairly good article on the subject (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a970606.html), and brings up such wonderful chemicals as strychnine and pyrethum as well, noting that they are only to be used in limited quantities.

Have you ever taken the time to visit a slaughterhouse? have you ever been in a veal barn? A chickenhouse? A turkeyhouse? have you been to cattle farms?

Without exageration, I’ve been to dozens of each.

I’m sure that bad ones exist, I just haven’t seen them, nor do I think they’re representative.

And, trust me, cows don’t have little societies. Really.

Hello Scylla,

I have been to a chicken farm. For some reason my teacher thought it would be a great place to go for a field trip. There were thousands of fuzzy chicks. We got to see them processed. It was the stuff nightmares are made of.

Then we got to see the adult chickens in their cages. As they had spent their entire life stuffed into little cages with three to a cage, some of them didnt even have the muscle development to hold up their heads. The worst part was that many of them had had their feet grow into the caging.

I’m looking up some sites but i dont need a site to tell me what i saw first hand.

Do you have some sites? I would especialy be interested in seeing a site that has research showing that cows do not have a society.

I’m looking for sites that are not extremely one sided. Obviously i’m looking for sites that prove my point, but are somewhat removed from the emotional side of this.

I used to also volunteer at a zoo. One of the things being fed to the carnivores was dead chickens from a neighbouring farm. From the vast quantities of dead chickens i would wager a guess that they werent doing too well over on the farm.

Anyway, bbl with some sites.

Well, there’s the Eiffel Tower, The Leaning Tower of Pisa, and Niagara Falls.

Those are some nice sites.

As for cites, I don’t need them. I live them. Up until a month ago, I lived on a farm. I still live in very rural PA.

This is dairy country, and where’s there’s dairy cows, there’s beeves. I have cows next door. What cows do is eat, poop, and moo. They don’t form societies, or, if they do, they are secret societies along the lines of the Illuminati.

I don’t need to prove that cows don’t form societies for the same reason that I don’t have to prove space aliens haven’t implanted a microchip in George Bush’s penis.

You’re the one making the positive assertion, you are the one who needs to prove it with an example of cow society, or some archeological evidence of a cow civilization.

I am speaking from knowledge and experience based on ten years of life in farm country, and ongoing business dealings with several hundred farms and ag businesses which I have personally visited.

You’re futzing around the internet trying to look for cites to back up an impression you had of a chicken house when you were a small child. Forgive me if I’m not impressed.

For the record though, chicken houses tend not to be especially nice places, but then chickens aren’t especially nice animals. I’m not a big chicken sympathizer.

Turkey rooms on the other hand, and Wampler Longacre franchises several dozen around here, are a real pleasure to visit. Your house should be so clean. You can keep the turkeys together and let them run around because they tend not to attack each other.

Some have antiseptic showers that vehicles and people have to go through, and the turkeys seem pretty happy and well-tended. I’ve been to about five of those.

Veal houses are remarkably clean as well. The walls are generally antiseptically washed once a week, and as far as the calf knows, it’s basically still in the womb. They are universally filled with the sounds of happy cows.

Dairy farms are idyllic. The cows are kept well-fed, in clean environs, and in perfect health since they represent such an important investment. Bacteria counts are always a concern, and I’d prefer to eat off a dairy floor than your kitchen floor any day of the week.

Most beef cows are kept in rocky scrub fields and fed silage and a growth protein to put on weight as fast as possible. Sometimes they are rotated out of big cattle houses. These tend not to be as clean as a dairy barn, but they’re extremely well-ventilated, temperature controlled, and not unpleasant.

Slaughterhouses tend not to be pleasant places and it’s true that the cattle are often distressed and uncomfortable, but not for long. It’s more a matter of sensibilities than anything else. They get a cleaner, quicker and more human death than a wild animal can expect. Dying is never nice. For the most part, they don’t have the time to feel much pain. I think I’ve been to four or five slaughterhouses.

Chicken slaughterhouses on the other hand are so horrible they’re almost funny. The chickens don’t feel much pain though, but if you’ve ever seen an eviscerator run, you’ll know what I’m talking about.

And before you go off on growth hormone, it’s just a protein, like creatine. You can eat the stuff, and it won’t do anything to you (unless you happen to have a bovine genome.)

All I know is that in Pig society, some pigs are more equal than others.

Hi scylla, i humbly apoligise for my spelling mistake. Now i understand why youre so defensive about this. Youre in the industry and feel like you have to defend it. To admit the truth would be to admit that you are part of the problem. I’m sorry you arent able to debate this in a rational way. I wont bother you with my Cites.

Cheers

What’s that law about corrections to spelling/typographical errors having spelling/typographical errors? I didn’t realize that applied to self-corrections. 'Scuse me: “Eye didnt relise…” (don’t want to violate any laws around here)

Hey Scylla, Somewhat (ok, very) off-topic here, but I’ve read that slaughterhouses have been completely revolutionized by innovations designed by Temple Grandin (a severly autistic engineer in Ft. Collins, Colorado) that are supposed to make the killing process much more humane.

All of the descriptions I’ve read have been by Dr. Grandin, and I’m interested in the perspective of someone who, very likely, has seen the before and after of the process (unless, I guess, you’re very young, and would have only seen the “after”). All of the stuff I’ve read from her has been from the “autistic” perspective, rather than the “ag engineer” perspective.

Hey, it’s my OP - I can go off topic if I want to :stuck_out_tongue:

Thanks!

Jon

Notes one more person he doesn’t want on his side, then slowly backs away.

Actually I’m in Finance.

I simply have extensive real life experience and knowledge germaine to the issue at hand.

You on the other hand are drawing from a font of knowledge based on the icky feeling you had at your 1st grade field trip, and a rather cavalier attitude towards grammar.

I feel on quite comfortable ground.
Jon:

Sorry, but I don’t know what you’re talking about.

The way I see chickens get processed is that a guy grabs one, chops its head off and sticks its feet into a machine which takes it away plucks it, eviscerates it, and washes it off.

The way I’ve seen cattle get slaughtered is that they get loaded off a truck directly into a large funnel shaped pen which narrows down to the point where only one at a time can go. There’s a couple of people watching them and inspecting them at various points. There’s some paperwork to make sure they are disease and antibiotic free, uninjured and fit for consumption.

At the end of the line there’s a guy with a pneumatic bolt gun. The cattle go into that area one at a time. The guy reaches over the fence, puts the bolt gun against the head and supposedly instantly kills the cow. They twitch a lot, and they may not all be killed instantly, but with a bolt to the head they’re pretty much out of it.

To get the idea of what a bolt gun does, hold a railroad spike in front of your forhead and have a strong friend hit the other end as hard as he can with a sledgehammer.

A chain is attached to the back legs, they are hoisted into the air and taken into the house itself, where they are cleaned and butchered. It’s pretty grisly, no doubt about it.

I asked if they ever wake up, and was told that yes, sometimes the bolt doesn’t kill them, and they do occasionally wake up and begin to struggle.

I was told that it doesn’t happen very often, and that nobody thinks it’s a good thing when it does. It’s not just the pain the animal is causing, it’s because a one ton animal with sharp hooves can cause a lot of damage and injury if it starts flailing around.

When it does happen they finish it off quickly both for the animal’s sake and for it’s own safety.

I didn’t ask how often it happens, but I had the impression it was a real rarity.

On the negative side, I’d seen the guy use the bolt gun several times on the same animal. It was struggling and he couldn’t get it rested firmly on the animal’s head.

It wasn’t nice, but it was still fairly quick.

Lord save me from Loonies!!

A few things first…

If you start an argument with “When I was little I saw this and therefore everything I experienced must be the truth” and the person responds "Well in my experience it is not that way” You do not have the right to claim they are being irrational. Nor can you get off with a “You’re one of them so can not be trusted”
That being said:

Why do people get all sad and weepy over the treatment of food?

Does a Shark feel guilty when it chews off a leg? Will a Hyena get weepy gnawing the flesh off of a carcass? And will an Owl shed a tear fro the mouse it tears in half to feed on?

Answer to all of those is NO. We at least try to kill the animal humanely first rather than eat it alive so I’d suggest we try to avoid being cruel. Stop being a twit and anthropomorphize these animals into being cute cuddly characters, they run on instinct and don’t think or feel like we do as much as you’d like to believe it.

(REMINDS ME OF HOMER EATING PINCHY)

You wanna be a vegan go ahead, you want to eat meat only go ahead, hell if you like eating shit, feel free.

Just don’t try and tell me how I should eat. If you don’t like how the animals are being treated you just go on doing what you are doing, don’t eat the meat and therefore you can be satisfied that you are not contributing your money to it.

Having been raised on a farm in very rural Pennsylvania, I’m backing up Scylla on this.

Lycoming County, incidentally, and yes, I hate chickens too.

pld:

I feel for you. Being neither vegetarian or Christian, I can’t say for sure, but seems to me that if the other vegetarians and Christians weren’t so busy giving the sane ones a bad name, we’d have much less fun in the Pit.

Oh, I’m a feminist. So I guess I do understand…

(And chickens are nasty creatures - if they don’t have neck muscles - good riddance, can’t peck you. Been “chicken pickin” - still eat chicken. I don’t have a cite for this, but I think a sponge has a bigger brain).