A note to the straight supremacists and those verbally beating the tar out of them

[The_Ace_of_Swords]

I agree. There’s no debate here. Nor has there been.

I’ve read your “cites,” and you’re as off-base with your accusations towards JC & JD, as you are towards myself.

Good day,

Ace

[MrVisible]

You have to admit, it’s an interesting debate tactic.

First, state your position. Then restate your position numerous times, never addressing any of the questions put to you, or any of the arguments in favor of the opposing positions. Then keep restating your position until your opposition gets pissed off. Then accuse them of being mean. Then walk off in a huff.

Interesting, but not very effective.

Pompous windbags.

[gobear]

You gotta love acehole–even after being busted by a mod for calling someone a “troll”–right after he accused me, falsely–he denies it ever happened.

**Ace[/]b and the fundies deserve each other.

[Esprix]

Originally posted by Joe_Cool

… here’s what I believe about homosexuality:

For some it is a choice, though not for all.
I do believe that we are all heterosexual by default, but that environment and experience bear much more weight than heredity. People can be trained to do anything, if you go about it the right way, and in the same way, the proper exposures and experiences during childhood can, without any conscious choice on his or her part, produce homosexual desires in a person when sexuality awakens at puberty.
So I agree that it’s not necessarily a choice, but that does not necessarily make it natural, nor does natural necessarily imply good.

Will that do?

How do you respond to mental health organizations (such as the APA) who, after 35+ years of research, disagree with you on this matter?

Esprix

[robertliguori]

Arg. I should have known what I was getting into when I started this thread. Godwin has reared his ugly head. The blood-dimmed tide is loosed.
And this game of he-said she-said is getting old fast. What various posters accused each other of three threads ago is getting pointless to discuss.

Resolved: that people have the right to be offended, disgusted, and grossed out by homosexuality, and to argue this position.

Resolved: That said people are arguing from a position of extreme weakness, because many opposing parties can argue from the position of authority, being homosexual themselves.

Resolved: That people have the right to be attracted to anyone or anything, and the right to have sex with any consenting adult, without legal sanction.
To gobear and co. (and me): You don’t need to get upset. A “I’m gay. I can testify that your position is wrong.” type post may not be satisfying, but really, you have no more chance of convincing these people that their positions are wrong then they do of convincing us that homosexuality is wrong.

To the other people and co.: Can we stop arguing about this? Please? If you advocate stripping the rights from gay people, you’re going to get taken to the cleaners, and rightfully so. If you support their right to go forth and be fabulous in peace, but consider them abominations, sinners, et al, well, that’s your position. But, surprisingly, they don’t want to hear it. If you can come up with actual cites stating that homosexuality is wrong, evil, et al, and not have them torn to shreds by testimony or an enraged Polycarp, by all means. But we do not care about your biased opinions!

[robertliguori]

Bloody wonderful. I need to learn to read more and post less.
My theory was answered here:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=135252

[Joe_Cool]

*Originally posted by gobear ***
Ahem.
JerseyDiamond:

An analogy comparing gays to rabid dogs–very nice.**

See, the thing here is that I’ve read enough of your posts to know that you are NOT a fool. So your ridiculous behavior in these threads is that much more disturbing. You know as well as I do that she was making a point about raising a child - that the child doesn’t need to understand the reasoning behind a prohibition for that prohibition to be valid. She did not say that gays are like rabid dogs. You are, I assume, intelligent and educated enough to understand analogy, so why do you pretend not to, and choose rather a purely literal reading of the text? (does that make you a gay literalist? a gay fundie? or just a normally intelligent and respected man acting in a childish manner?)

**In the God, Gays, and Christianity thread, JD quotes the bible texts agaisnt homosexuality verbatim and then says,

This is applicable to everyone at all times. **

I assume (again) that you understand the difference between biblical moral law and law under the civil legal authority, am I correct? Because I accept the law of gravity and Newton’s laws of motion, that doesn’t mean that I’m attempting to legislate your life, now, does it? I am fully capable of believing that you will be affected by moral or physical law without lobbying to strip you of your rights, can I not?

**On the question of imposing moral standards, JD wrote

We should let the Bible and its values be known. After you have shared that with whomever, you have to let God convict the heart of that person. As long as you did your part, you are done. Just let it be known.

which isn’t an answer to the question.**

It does answer the question. She said clearly that her part is to spread news. This particular news is that God has called certain actions sinful. Nowhere in there did she say that the next step is to pass laws restricting or banning those actions. In fact, she said that the next step is God’s, not our own.

What I’d like is for her and you to explicitly say that you would defend civil rights for all citizens, including gay folk.

What I’d like is a free trip to Jamaica and a life of luxury. Since when am I here to please you? But if you had read as many of my posts as you seem to be implying, you would already know my position on civil rights.

**Joe_Cool:

True, but the bible, in both Old and New Testaments, appears to be quite clear regarding the sinfulness of sexual immorality – both homo and hetero. If a person chooses not to accept the bible’s authority, fine. But it’s ridiculous to say that it doesn’t say that. Can you be forgiven of sin? Of course. But that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still sin.

You are on record as using the same language that the fundamentalists who work to subvert gay rights use.

Are you for equal rights for gay citizens, yes or no? It’s a simple question.**

You are on record as using the same crazed, frenetic, fanatical language as Kirkland. So what? If you can show that I have spoken out in favor of stripping you of your rights, I’ll eat my f-ing hat.

I have never denied my belief that gay sex is sin, so I’m not sure what you hoped to accomplish by quoting what you did. Watch, I’ll say it again: I believe that gay sex is sin. I also believe that unmarried sex is sin. But you obstinately and continually refuse to read the part where I said It’s not my job to condemn anybody. I do not oppress or victimize gay people, nor do I treat them any differently than I treat anybody else. That doesn’t mean I think what they’re doing is O-Tay, it means that it’s not my business to force them to change.

You’re not going to bully me into signing your declaration of officially allowed political beliefs. I have said again and again that I don’t want to take anybody’s rights away; I’m too busy stopping the government from stripping me of my own. But you’re more interested in continuing with your insane rantings about how I’m oppressing you than you are in CHECKING YOUR FREAKING FACTS.

Nobody has started “poor me” thereads. We are saying that gays are not accorded equal rights. If Jews
[ul]
[li]could be fired for being Jewish [*]could be evicted for being Jewish[/li][li]could not be legally married[/li][li]could not get equal taxation [/li][li]could not get equal health insurance coverage for spouses[/li][li]could be beaten up and killed with impunity[/li][/ul]
then Jews would be protesting as we are.

Last I checked, nobody can be beaten and killed with impunity. Cite?

As for insurance coverage, maybe you should mail one of your rants to your carrier, rather than directing them at me. Or am I also a representative of the insurance industry?

I personally don’t favor gay marriage, but that’s because I don’t accept civil government as having any business conducting marriages in the first place. I view marriage as from God, and under his authority. If the government wants to create an equivalent “civil union” or whatever, for people who don’t want a religious marriage, fine. Is that close enough for you?

You can be fired or evicted for being gay? Not anyplace where I’ve lived.

so even though being gay is perfectly natural and involuntary, you still view it as “not good.” That’s the definition of bigotry.

No it’s not. It’s putting higher emphasis on religious faith than in the opinions of others.

But since you mention it,

big·ot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

Paint yourself with that brush as long as you’re using it on me.

Mind, I have to give you and JerseyDiamond props for having the guts to argue and stand your ground, which is far more than the cowardly His4Ever has done. Moreover, her posts have been far more hateful than either of you two have been.

Thanks. I appreciate that.

**Bear in mind, that I have forceful, yet respectful in replying to you. You, tn the other hand, have said

You’re full of crap, gobear, and making yourself look like a fool.

This is just stupid.

you’re acting like a child and a jerk,

Who is acting like **Kirkland ** here? **

I stand by those observations. As I said, I know that I have gotten rude as well, and I apologize for that. But, you have not been thoughtful or respectful in addressing me or Jersey throughout most of the time in these recent threads. I believe I quoted much of your thoughtfulness in my first post of the thread that inspired this one. You might read over your earlier words.

comparing people to rabid dogs and arsenic is not “thoguhtful, respectful, or human”.

I knew somebody was going to do that. Thanks for being the first. Even though I specifically disclaimed that connotation. It’s amazing how the “gay-literalist-fundies” will, without fail, extract from my words precisely the meaning that is furthest from what I meant.

Esprix:

** How do you respond to mental health organizations (such as the APA) who, after 35+ years of research, disagree with you on this matter? **

The same way I respond to all the other medical organizations.

Remember when butter was bad for us and going to kill us all, so we were all supposed to eat margarine? Then a few years later, margarine is now made by satan himself, so we’re all supposed to go back to eating butter because it’s healthy again?

I don’t believe it. And even if I turn out to be wrong and it is fully genetic, so what? All kinds of natural stuff is bad for you. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s called sinful in the bible.

[grendel72]

Just because something is called sinful in the bible doesn’t change the fact that it causes no harm to anyone while your hateful spew is responsible for the tide of discrimination and violence that homosexuals have to face every day.
Do you have no sense of morality? Can you not tell right from wrong without relying on cliffs notes that were written forpeople lkiving in an intirely different culture and time?

[Homebrew]

*Originally posted by Joe_Cool *
**You can be fired or evicted for being gay? Not anyplace where I’ve lived.
**

Read this http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp?ID=6210&sd=09/13/02

and this: http://www.aclu.org/news/2002/n071802c.html

Then try this: http://www.hrc.org/issues/workplace/index.asp (and if you dare, read the PDFs on that page)

Or you might be enlightened by this: http://www.pflag.org/education/civilrights.html

States with no-discrimination in housing codes:
Connecticut (Title 46A §81e)
Hawaii (§368-1)
Maryland (Article 49B §22)
Massachusetts (Ch. 151B § 3(6))
Minnesota (Ch. 363.12)
New Hampshire (Title 31, Ch. 354A, § 354-A:8)
New Jersey (Title 10:5-3)
Rhode Island (Title 34, Ch. 34-37, § 34-37-1)
Vermont (Title 9, §4503(1))
Wisconsin (Ch. 106.50)

You can be denied a mortgage or denied a lease in the other states (unless there is a local law protecting you, such as the recently reaffirmed one in Miami-Dade County)

It wasn’t long ago Non-Discrimination in housing and employment issues were enacted to prevent racial and religious discrimination. Those laws were passed because the discrimination occured. The protections need to include sexual orientation and gender identity for the same reasons: discrimination occurs.

Inform yourself.

[Siege]

Joe, I hate to be the one to do this to you, but here’s your cite with regard to your statement:

Last I checked, nobody can be beaten and killed with impunity.

. Check out dorkusmalorkusmafia’s story, not to mention others. The law is only as good as those who choose to enforce it, which includes the society. Driving faster than the speed limit is against the law, but I’d be willing to bet most of us on this message board do it (of course, in my state, betting is also against the law).

Yes, these are isolated incidents. Having been the victim of repeated “isolated incidents” (I’m not gay, but I was unpopular), I can tell you it’s no fun. Knowing no one will do anything to help just makes things worse.

I accepty your apology, but on this issue it appears you and I are fated to stand on opposite sides.

Respectfully,
CJ

[Esprix]

Originally posted by Joe_Cool

I don’t believe it. And even if I turn out to be wrong and it is fully genetic, so what? All kinds of natural stuff is bad for you. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s called sinful in the bible.

Then obviously you know nothing about the solid medical research done in the field; furthermore, you seem to revel in the fact that you are willfully ignorant of same.

For the record, research does not indicate it is fully genetic; it also doesn’t indicate it is a choice. It does, however, state that the combination of genetics, biology, sociology, parenting, environment and physiology is what seems to cause variances in the continuum of human sexuality - but none of it can be controlled by the individual. Regardless of what you believe to be true about whether sexual orientation is a choice or not, the fact is that it’s not. (And even if it were, in the United States one shouldn’t have to defend oneself from attacks on their personal liberties, but we’ve covered that ad nauseum as well.)

[rul=“http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/orient.html”]Check this out for more information, or, if you choose, wrap yourself in a blanket of self-imposed ignorance. Sticking your fingers in your ears and humming won’t change anything, and waving your Bible at us like a weapon is insulting to you, us, and your holy book.

Esprix

[Sparc]

You want more Joe_Cool? Here goes:

Human Rights Watch World Report 2002 - Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Rights.
[…]
A report released in February by the Judicial Council of California, revealed that anti-gay bias was a major problem in the court system statewide in California.[…] Nearly a third of all court employees believed that it was unsafe for them to be openly identified as gay or lesbian in the workplace. This bias remained even though California was one of the United States’ most progressive states regarding lesbian and gay equality.
[…]
Each day was a test of survival for many lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender students in U.S. public schools.

They cover the abysmal situation in public schools in another special report.

Hatred in The Hallways - Violence Against Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Students in U.S. Schools

Physical Abuse

[…]

A 1996 Wisconsin lawsuit starkly illustrates the escalation from verbal taunts to horrific violence. […] They referred to him routinely as “faggot” and began to hit him and spit on him. He was subjected to a mock rape in a science lab by two of his classmates, who told him that he should enjoy it; twenty other classmates looked on and laughed. He attempted suicide at the end of his eighth grade year.

In high school, the abuse worsened. He was attacked several times in the school bathroom and urinated on during at least one of the attacks. When he took the bus to and from school, other students regularly called him “fag” and “queer” and often threw objects such as steel nuts and bolts at him. In the ninth grade, he again attempted suicide.
The next year, he arrived at school early one day and was surrounded by eight boys, one of whom kicked him in the stomach for five to ten minutes while theothers looked on and laughed. Several weeks later, he collapsed from internal bleeding caused by the attack He left school in the eleventh grade.114

The student testified that he asked the principal to intervene to stop the harassment and explained in detail both the attacks and the antigay bias motivating the attacks. Despite the principal’s promises to intervene, she took no action. In its decision, the court noted that "after the mock rape, [the student] escaped and fled to [the principal’s] office. [Her] alleged response is somewhat astonishing; she said that boys will be boys' and told [him] that if he was going to be so openly gay,’ he should `expect’ such behavior from his fellow students."
[…]
But the limited data that are available suggest that it is common for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender youth to suffer physical assaults because of their sexual orientation or gender identity. […] Not only were boys who have same-sex partners more likely than their heterosexual peers to be involved in fights that required them to get medical treatment, they are also more likely to have been threatened or injured with a weapon at school, more likely not to attend school because they felt unsafe, and more likely to carry a weapon themselves.

Emphasis added

I can tell you that although Europe is slightly better off in average, it is only so by a breath.

Anyone who defends condemnation of non-heterosexual behavior, sex, or feelings is actively supporting these despicable deeds. Think about that for a moment, instead of harping your filthy little diatribes about what you claim that God says about it.

Sparc

[gobear]

I wrote a great reply at work, but the hamsters ate it-why do I have to re-log-in?–andHomebrew beat me to the anti-discrimination links.

I personally don’t favor gay marriage, but that’s because I don’t accept civil government as having any business conducting marriages in the first place. I view marriage as from God, and under his authority. If the government wants to create an equivalent “civil union” or whatever, for people who don’t want a religious marriage, fine. Is that close enough for you?

I want what you and JerseyDiamond get (congratulations, BTW). I want to be the next-of-kin for my partner. I want to have legal rights in probate if he dies. I want legal rights if he is incapacitated. I want to file joint taxes. No more, no less.

You are on record as using the same crazed, frenetic, fanatical language as Kirkland.

That is not true. If you think so, I envy you your innocence.

See, the thing here is that I’ve read enough of your posts to know that you are NOT a fool. So your ridiculous behavior in these threads is that much more disturbing. You know as well as I do that she was making a point about raising a child - that the child doesn’t need to understand the reasoning behind a prohibition for that prohibition to be valid. She did not say that gays are like rabid dogs. You are, I assume, intelligent and educated enough to understand analogy, so why do you pretend not to, and choose rather a purely literal reading of the text? (does that make you a gay literalist? a gay fundie? or just a normally intelligent and respected man acting in a childish manner?)

See, this is what I don’t understand about you. You two are the only ones who believe that you did not compare (that is what an analogy does, BTW) gays to rabid dogs. Every other poster hwo has commented on it agrees with my interpretation. Instead of doing the Christian thing–apologize for the choice of words–you continue to repeat it and then talk down to me and call me “childish” for telling you exactly how it appears.

Permit me a small hijack, but what value is being a Christian if this is how you behave? Aren’t you called to be an example of good behavior, to be a temple of the Holy Spirit? I don’t see that being a Christian entails anything other than a subscription to a set of beliefs–it certainly doesn;t seem to be at all transformative. You should be shaming me by your example. Instead, you continue to take potshots at me while I refrain from swearing or being personally insulting.
Joe, dude, if you’re going to convince me that you are tapped into the Great Source of Being and the Font of Holiness, you really need to work on being the salt of the earth and a light on a hill.

As long as you say that you will not oppose civil rights for gay people, then we have no quarrel. I would like you to change your mind about gay=sin, but enlightenment must come from within. I’m going to try very hard to be a good example, so you can see that gay people are not evil.

I hope your god blesses you and your marriage.

[JerseyDiamond]

If you took the analogy as an insult gobear, I am sorry.
What ever happens in your life, I wish you no harm and nothing but happiness. No matter who you are or what you are, I would never let anything bad happen to you if it was in my power. I hope God blesses you too. Thank you for the Congrats, JD

[gobear]

Thank you, JD. I really do want to have amicable relations with you guys.

[robertliguori]

Hey! It worked!
[Mentally congratulates self on post which OBVIOUSLY was the deciding factor in the turnaround.]
Seriously, nifty, guys. This is much more fun to read that accusations and flames.

[Guinastasia]

You know, even if you do think that homosexuality and behavior or whatever is a sin, since it’s not affecting anyone but the consenting adults that are involved, shouldnt’ you leave it up to God to sort out? I mean, like it’s really that big of a deal?

I have to say I remember when we had to put our little kitten to sleep. I was having a serious meltdown, and just started cursing God and life in general. Some of the nicest people to me were everyone-gay, straight, Christian, non. I remember a few so-called Christians taking me to task and telling me I was going to hell. Nice bunch.

Joe, Jesus said, “Love your neighbor, and judge not, lest you be judged.” So why don’t you?

[iampunha]

FWIW, Joe, thanks for answering my question:) I think I understand where you’re coming from, I just disagree with you. I hope (and think, actually) you can see why this, all of it, is important to those of us who are fighting for it.

Oh, and just because I’m thinking about it right now (and those involved, I think, would have no issue with me bringing it up) … on the return trip from NYCFest this past January, I think it was universally agreed upon by the DC/MD/VA contingency that you’re hot, Jersey Just FWIW.

[sub]I get a sense of peace reading the last few posts here…[/sub]

[JerseyDiamond]

Guinastasia, joe_cool has not judged anyone or said he hated anyone. So please stop assuming, ok.

[JerseyDiamond]

aw shucks… :o thanks iampunha, you’re not so bad yourself.