I let loose on Ace because he deserved it. I’m not Kirkland. Get it, pardon the expression, straight.
Yes, that’s is what it is about, the freedom to love.
You can’t possibly believe that, can you?
Heck, I like and tolerate all sorts of people I disagree with; I even have grown to like some fundies, like Dreamer. I can understand that your beliefs dictate that you must disapprove of homosexuality.
But do you not see that that you have no right to impose your beliefs on me? I’m not a member of your church; you have no right to tell me how I must live my life. It is none of your business. In the same way, you have no right to pass laws to restrict my life any more than you can pass laws banning other religions just because you think they are wrong. What you people do in your church is your business; extend us the same courtesy.
Bear in mind I, the atheist gay guy, was courteous to you, the rude Christian. You might want to think about how Jesus would act here.
I’m with matt as he mentioned in another thread - no matter how cloaked in polite words and calm tones it might be, it’s still hate, and, more importantly, a direct attack on one of the essential cores of my humanity - my sexuality.
Once again, for what seems like the hundredth time in what seems like as many threads, I’d like to see you produce a quote bearing my name where I advocated passing any laws to restrict you, telling you how to live your life, or banning any religions whatsoever. You have made this claim repeatedly with not even a hint of factual basis behind it. So please, I challenge you to produce my words advocating any of the above listed actions against you.
I’ll be waiting for that, but I won’t hold my breath. You have made the same unsubstantiated and patently false claims about Jerseydiamond repeatedly, and when pressed for evidence, you left the thread in a huff.
I’d demand an apology, but I doubt it would accomplish much of anything.
I admit that I got a bit rude, but hopefully you can understand how that might have happened. Given your continual outbursts over the past week, I’m sure you’ll be able to find it in your heart to understand my anger after repeated ad hominem attacks from the board’s self-proclaimed advocates of tolerance and love.
You know, until recently, I had both admired you and considered you to be one of the most reasoned, well-spoken, and intelligent posters in the SD community. Sad how times change, isn’t it?
To one with a Biblical literalist conception of God, the above statement could be offensive to that person, as an anti-gay stance is to you.
They say that your sexual actions send you to hell, you say it is still hate to kindly attack homosexual acts, even when a belief that those acts are wrong is a part of their essential being. If one is a Biblical literalist, homosexual acts are wrong.
Is it offensive to call part of the essential core of the humanity of Biblical literalists hate?
lel, when it is the Biblical literalists who wave their Bibles at me, tell me I’m going to Hell, and work to enact laws to deny me equal rights, I have no problem calling them hateful. Are there instances of the gay community engaging in similar tactics against those literalists? Yes. But weighing those small number of acts against a history of decades, if not centuries of oppression by those same literalists, there isn’t much of a comparison, IMHO.
Of course there are literalists out there whom I have never met, have never decried me, and have never in fact decried anyone - and those people deserve the same respect in return, even when we disagree. But when words like “sinner,” “abomination” and “unnatural” come from their mouths, I will continue to defend myself.
Well I ain’t Joe, but I have criticized the gay contingent on this board so I’ll play:
Gay marriage: For it, absolutely. I see no reason not to grant tax and inherity rights to two people who have pledged to live their life together.
Gays in the Military: Ermmmm, that’s a bit stickier because of morale. I love Sam Nunn’s compromise of “don’t ask don’t tell”. Sexuality has nothing to do with firing a gun, flying a plane, or (more importantly) tactical know-how. However, because this is an issue for the demographic that makes up the enlisted men, it would be far to much of a pain in the ass to forcefully integrate. The military must run on practicality. That’s why I like “don’t ask don’t tell”. Take it slow.
Repeal of laws between consenting adults: sodomy laws are ridiculous. They’re also almost never enforced so fighting them is almost like jousting windmills. The only one prosecuted in my memory was against a husband in an ugly, ugly divorce. (she used an old law to get him because he performed oral sex on her)
All that said, y’all need to chill. I understand that this issue cuts far deeper to the gays than it does to me, but y’all have crossed the line lately between defending your rights and a mob mentality. Ace is not your enemy, he’s just an ornery bastard. Jersey Diamond is not you enemy, she’s just a biblical literalist. She truly believes “love the sinner, not the sin”. Uncle Toby isn’t even your enemy either. He’s just a guy that tripped over his own feet in expresing an overly intellectual point. Rip on him for an overly detached ivory tower philosophy, but not homophobia.
’Uigi and Rhapsody? They’re idiots. Save your ire for the idiots. This issue has gone way too far afield and I fear that most involved have lost their perspective in defending their own pet points. Let’s take a breath, and resume the dialogue in a couple of weeks.
You said there was only one you could think of in recent memory, so I gave you a few others that are also recent. If this, to you, is an adversarial stance, perhaps it is not I who need chill.
AS I have said repeatedly, you are not an individual, you are a representative of the fundamentalists who, yes, are waging legal battles to repeal gay rights ordinances. (They lost in Miami, thank Jah). If you were going on against Jews, I’d be busting you about the Nazis–and I wouldn’t let you off if you whined, “But I’m not a Nazi, I just believe Jews are damned and perverse.”
That’s a lie. I have given many, many cites on fundamentalist repression in the political arena. Neither you, nor JerseyDiamond have repudiated these attempts to cirumscribe my civil rights. I left the thread because Acehole falsely accused me of libeling him and then threatened me with the mods.
I am perfectly willing to apologize if you come out in suppoort of gay marriage and legal equality for gay folk.
Another lie. I have made zero ad hominem attacks against you.
Odd, I was going to say the same thing about you.
You can’t be serious.
A. She has shown condecension, rudeness, and a haughty attitide, but no love. If you want to see real Christian love, I suggest you read Polycarp and Dreamer’s posts. JerseyDiamond isn’t even in the same category.
B. “Love the sinner, not the sin” in reference to homosexuality is bullshit.
Homosexuality is no more inherently wicked than being left-handed is. Mind, back in the day, good Christians believed left-handed folk were Satanic–check the etymology of “sinister.” They were wrong then and they are wrong now.
Calling my love “sin” is inherently insulting. Would you like it if I referred to your union as sin? Would you like me to call the deepest urgings of your heart, your tenderness, your caring “abomination”?
The Christians have no authority for their hate-filled bigotry except the ravings of a misogynistic, bitter old man crossed with a heavily Gnostic influence that believes that the body, including sexuality, is inherently evil, and only pure spirit is good. Further, the same people who use the Bible to condemn homosexuals also use the same book to defy modern geology, astronomy, and biology. Any book that is used to justify flood geology and Creationism is probably not a very good primer on human sexuality either.
Joe_Cool, I did a search on recent posts by you, and I have been wrong about your recent actions. Please accept my apologies. I’ll also admit that part of my reaction to you comes from a post by someone using the name “Joe_Cool” on a different message board which said, roughly, that if the Messiah comes again and says homosexuality is not sinful, then he won’t believe that person is the Messiah. If that wasn’t you, I apologize for allowing that to influence my opinion of you.
I also apologize for putting words in your mouth by accusing you of believing that homosexuals are condemned to hell simply by virtue of being homosexuals or committing homosexual acts. Among more Fundamentalist and Biblical Literalist Christians, this view does seem to be common. My point was intended to be that I cannot hold with a belief which says people I believe good people will not be sent to heaven (talk about an oversimplification!) because of one aspect of their lives.
To the discussion in general
In 21st century America, “homo” is still an insult, while “hetero” is not. If a man tells a woman he’s interested in her in a social situation, chances are it will be taken as a compliment. If he tells a man he’s interested in him, chances are it will be taken as an insult. A woman can hold hands with her husband of 10 years in public and it will be seen as sweet. If she holds hands with her lesbian partner of 10 years in public, some people will accuse her of “flaunting her homosexuality.” When a heterosexual is hospitalized, there is no question of his or her spouse being able to visit. The same does not apply to a homosexual’s partner. Homosexuals are accused of threatening family values by excess promisuity, yet, when they want to form a family and raise children, they are also accused of threatening family values, as evidenced by such things as the “Defense of Marriage Act”.
People believe homosexuality is wrong. I realize that a certain number of those people do believe that homosexuality is also something one conciously chooses. I’m about as straight as they come, but, due to some unfortunate circumstances, I know what it feels like to be told repeatedly that one is not allowed to love. Believing that is one of the worst feelings in the world. It is isolating, despairing, and painful beyond belief. As someone who does not believe homosexuality to be a choice, I cannot believe God would be cruel enough to consider it a sin.
Joe_Cool, I lashed out at you in part out of pain and anger, especially when I read your suggestion that certain people deserve to be beat up. One more time, I apologize. Because of my beliefs as a Christian and because of my own experience, I consider deliberate cruelty to be one of the worst sins a person can commit. I’m afraid I read your post as espousing cruelty.
I don’t know how many times this has been asked of you, Joe_Cool, but I’ve spent the past half-hour or so looking, and I can’t find your answer to this question (posed in this thread or otherwise):
What would convince you that sexuality (regardless of the prefix) is a natural existence? In other words, what evidence would you require in order to believe that your heterosexuality was as natural as gobear’s homosexuality and my bisexuality?
I’ll tell you what, MrVisible and gobear, since you are the ones making the unfounded accusations, why don’t YOU back up your statements? Isn’t that how it’s supposed to work around here?
Since I’m doing nothing of the kind, how can I possibly be a representative of that group? You’re full of crap, gobear, and making yourself look like a fool. If you have a problem with your heterosexual oppressors, then address your bitch sessions to them, not to me, since I am, in fact, an individual and not the culmination of your anti-gay nightmares.
This is just stupid. But since you want to bring up the Jews, I find it interesting that they are the most oppressed people in all of history, but you don’t see them starting “poor me” threads.
How about if you apologize because you’re acting like a child and a jerk, and making completely false accusations? I didn’t ask you for cites on “fundamentalist repression”, I asked you for cites linking me and Jerseydiamond TO that fundamentalist repression. So put up, or shut up.
Funny how much that sounds like “I’m perfectly willing to stop hitting you if you stop being gay.”
Who the hell are you to dictate what I need to believe or what statements I need to make? I’m still waiting for you to cite my posts linking me to your opressors.
cjhoworth:
Apology accepted. Although the post on that other board was me.
It seems you’ve misinterpreted the meaning behind what I said. The bible has taken up a very clear position on the topic of homosexuality. If a so-called messiah were to walk up to me saying “Hi, I’m your friendly neighborhood messiah, and the bible is wrong. All that stuff is really ok,” I would demand to see some ID. Jesus said clearly that there would be many false Christs to come, claiming to be him. How can we tell the real one from the false ones? Only by their adherance to God’s word. If the messiah’s actions are contrary to the bible, then there’s a good chance he’s not the real one. Miracles are a dime a dozen - the Egyptian mystics copied most of the ones that God gave them through Moses - and personal experience and feelings are, well, fickle. So the only way we have to know the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, is by our one objective reference.
“What would convince you of _____” is a pointless question. I suppose it’s conceivable that I could wake up tomorrow and say “gosh, I was wrong this whole time, it really is ok!” or maybe nothing at all would convince me. But what’s natural doesn’t really have much bearing on my feelings on the subject. Sin is natural. Selfishness is natural. Violence is natural. Arsenic is natural. Lots of things that are not good for you are natural.
For the record, though - and although this isn’t exactly an answer to your question, I think it expresses my thoughts on the matter better than a direct answer would - here’s what I believe about homosexuality:
For some it is a choice, though not for all.
I do believe that we are all heterosexual by default, but that environment and experience bear much more weight than heredity. People can be trained to do anything, if you go about it the right way, and in the same way, the proper exposures and experiences during childhood can, without any conscious choice on his or her part, produce homosexual desires in a person when sexuality awakens at puberty.
So I agree that it’s not necessarily a choice, but that does not necessarily make it natural, nor does natural necessarily imply good.
Will that do?
PS I know some jerk is going to say “Oh, so you’re comparing being gay to eating arsenic or beating somebody up? I knew it, you are full of hate!”
So just let me :rolleyes: at you in advance. I am merely illustrating the fact that natural does not mean good.
Joe, you’re a better man than I. If people threw accusations at me and my wife, and refused to cite, as has happened several times in this thread, I would have either blown a gasket or washed my hands of the whole deal.
Again, I think you’ve shown thoughtful, respectful, and humane positions, but if people refuse to even bother to cite hurtful accusations, I personally would bail on the whole thread. It’s not worth it – there’s no honesty there. You can’t debate an agenda.
Maybe next time, it’ll be in GD, and there’ll be less nonsense.
An analogy comparing gays to rabid dogs–very nice.
and
In the God, Gays, and Christianity thread, JD quotes the bible texts agaisnt homosexuality verbatim and then says,
On the question of imposing moral standards, JDwrote
which isn’t an answer to the question. What I’d like is for her and you to explicitly say that you would defend civil rights for all citizens, including gay folk. Joe_Cool:
You are on record as using the same language that the fundamentalists who work to subvert gay rights use.
Are you for equal rights for gay citizens, yes or no? It’s a simple question.
Nobody has started “poor me” thereads. We are saying that gays are not accorded equal rights. If Jews
[ul]
[li]could be fired for being Jewish [/li][li]could be evicted for being Jewish[/li][li]could not be legally married[/li][li]could not get equal taxation [/li][li]could not get equal health insurance coverage for spouses[/li][li]could be beaten up and killed with impunity[/li][/ul]
then Jews would be protesting as we are.
so even though being gay is perfectly natural and involuntary, you still view it as “not good.” That’s the definition of bigotry. Mind, I have to give you and JerseyDiamond props for having the guts to argue and stand your ground, which is far more than the cowardly His4Ever has done. Moreover, her posts have been far more hateful than either of you two have been.
Bear in mind, that I have forceful, yet respectful in replying to you. You, tn the other hand, have said
Who is acting like **Kirkland ** here?
comparing people to rabid dogs and arsenic is not “thoguhtful, respectful, or human”. But you are right, there is no debating the inhumane agenda of the fundamentalists.
And you have no business trying to pass yourself off as the voice of reason after you have been demonstrated to be a hypocrite and a liar.