Just so I have this straight … so there are parts of the Bible that are NOT the inspired Word o’God?
Sorry to be all legalistic here, but neither that passage, nor John 3:18, specifically mentions a Hell.
As regards the OP:
Jenkinsfan, if you need to ritualistically quote your four points to other folks to satisfy the requirements of your religious beliefs, or merely to ease the emptiness in your life, knock yourself out.
For supporting evidence, however, you have provided references only to a single book, the bulk of which was written at a time when people knew next to nothing about the world around them, and with its original meaning undoubtedly altered through the numerous generations of translation that the text has been subjected to. In my reading I have found this book be internally inconsistent, factually inaccurate and incomplete, and open to wildly variant interpretations in many respects. I therefore have no choice but to reject your thesis.
Have a nice day.
There’s heaven, there’s hell…is there a third option?
Well, I’ll try to say it a different way: the passages quoted do not specifically state that persons who are not invited into the Kingdom of Heaven (whatever that is) are therefore consigned to Hell. One passage does say that the unforgiven are “condemned”, but it is not clear from the passage itself whether said condemnation is to a place called Hell.
Um, actually though, it’s not a big deal to me one way or another, as I have no particular reason to believe that any such place as a Heaven or Hell exists.
And don’t forget the corollary–the greater the number of people who disagree with you, and the greater the vehemence with which they disagree, the more correct you are in your assertions.
"The weirdest of all was Limbo. Limbo was where they sent unbaptized babies. The reasoning was that it wasn’t their fault. Can’t see God if you’re not baptized, but you were too young to make the decision. Whip 'em into limbo… What could limbo have been? Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm… Wooooooooooooooooooo… weeeelllllcoooommmmmme to liiiiiimmmmmmbooooooooo…
“I think they’ve since cancelled limbo. I’m not completely sure but I think when they cancelled a few of the saints they called off limbo too. I hope they promoted everyone, sent them to heaven, didn’t just cut them loose in space!”
-George Carlin
First problem - you say none of us are perfect, yet you then call Jesus perfect in your writing below - if I’m not mistaken, he was a man too. Of course, this is all moot because you say that we all make mistakes and none of us deserve eternal life - but this is due to your mythological Adam and Eve getting into trouble. Not one of us was there to prevent that from happening - and if our “human nature” is what gets us into trouble with God, then he designed us knowing full well we’d get into trouble. Sounds fair, huh?
So Jesus can pay the sin by spending a few days in hell, but we have to spend eternity? Given that Jesus is supposed to be part of God, then it would stand to reason that since he invented Hell, spending a few days there would be more like a vacation than a punishment. Yet, we puny humans have to spend all eternity there? Again - explain how this is fair under any known sense of morality. Also, please explain how you justify that temporal crimes are worthy of eternal punishment, aside from “God says so, nyeh nyeh nyeh.”
Another curious thing - I need to go find the chapter/verse for this, but people say Jesus was perfect, yet when one of his followers called him “good” (note, not “perfect” - not “super special” - just “good”) Jesus’ reply was (to paraphrase) “Why dost thou call me good? There is none good but God.”
Implications seem to be that a) Jesus wasn’t perfect (unless being good isn’t a requirement) and b) Jesus isn’t part and parcel of God as he makes his separateness quite clear.
How is an immortal being going to hell for 3 days a greater sacrifice than any ol’ human going to hell for eternity? Sorry, I don’t follow. How is that a greater sacrifice than a mother giving her life to protect her children, knowing she probably won’t be dancing around outside her gravesite in 3 days?
Rational belief is fine - belief supported by the evidence at hand is, I would say, a good thing. Belief in spite of the evidence - or with a complete lack of evidence - smacks of foolhardiness. It leaves your religious belief with no more merit than the Mormons, the Heaven’s Gaters, the Muslims - well, all the other faith-based religions. You’ve no grounds aside from “Well, because I think so! So nyeh!” for saying yours is the right one.
Once upon a time, I did just that. The silence confirmed for me that god is dead.
Seems like this has been said for years and years… what will you do when much like the JWs you have to admit that, wait, maybe this isn’t the End Times? - but surely they’re right around the corner!
Aside from your noticing of quakes - do you have a cite for the number of earthquakes over time? Also, can you show that this is due to god’s plan and not to a) simply greater tectonic activity predicted with trend analysis or b) greater sensitivity of seismic equipment?
Cite? Wars seem to have been ongoing since the day one man took something another man wanted. And rumors of wars? What does that mean?
Even when I was a Christian, I believed that all those that said such things were kidding themselves. God made it very clear in the Scripture I read that no man knew the hour or the day - that it would come when we least expect it - and that those who claim it is at hand, were fooling themselves.
Anyway - how is your information any more accurate than the 4-5 times the JWs and various other cults have been mistaken?
Oh, nevermind then - I just wasted my time writing all of this.
I’ve found that in my experience the last refuge of a Christian in debate tends to be a veiled threat of eternal damnation. Sad, really. As soon as you can provide any evidence of your god, your hell, and your salvation, I’m sure all of us heathens would lend a willing ear - for now, you’ve told us nothing new and nothing convincing.
Thanks, though. 
Weren’t fundamentalist Christians accused of having a persecution / martyr complex in another thread? Why, I believe they were!
And once again, we the characterization is - at least in this instance - right on the money.
What happened to free will?
It’s amazing the long list of things the almighty can’t do on his own… even 8 year olds know how to post on the net, but god doesn’t?
Y’know, the reaction to this thread is quite interesting. And I’m not being judgmental in saying that, but trying to observe objectively.
A lot of people expressed annoyance. What Jenkies did was the same ole same ole that you’ve heard before.
Well, okay. He said in his OP he was doing just that. He also stated his purpose, which was that in his opinion the time is getting short, and he wanted to spell out what he feels is the way to safety for people, in case they felt moved to accept his POV and act on it.
For this he deserves ridicule?
Granted, you’ve heard it before. Which makes an excellent reason not to open a thread. I find most of the flirtation threads in MPSIMS less than interesting. And they sit there with the little blue arrows indicating stuff’s been added since I read them – because I never did.
I’d differ with him on the presentation of his stated topic – not because we are at odds on the subject matter, but because the whole idea of conviction of sin and showing Jesus as the escape from it is one that is largely ineffective among intellectuals – and most of this board is more or less intellectually oriented.
But the idea that whatever your pleasure, eventually it becomes cloying and addictive rather than giving true gratification, is one worth looking at. And the idea that an infinite being has such a broad mental capacity that he can grasp every fabric of every person’s thoughts and feelings, and love them – and does in fact do so – and wants to have a requited, mutual love with each of them, is one worth pursuing.
And Jenkies has some historical basis for his thinking. Granted it may be mythical or legendary – we’ve been around that track enough times already – but there are data behind his assertions. Unlike all the other saviors of legend, specific time and place data are provided for the life and actions of Jesus of Nazareth, with the theoretical possibility of (in)validation by outside records.
So where’s he going with all this? He simply feels that the time when one may decide about JC’s supposed offer is coming to an end. (It might be worthwhile to ask why, in more detail than his brief post gives.) He thinks the TM ought to get warned, in as simple terms as he can put it. He did so – and spelled out that he realized many would not buy what he said, but wanted to give the opportunity to those who might.
Those who made reasoned arguments about why they did not buy into his POV can be commended for at least answering the OP in the spirit it was given.
I’d be glad to continue this discussion on the basis of reactions to this post.
I wasn’t going to get involved in this… I just didn’t see the point. I have occasionally been drawn into one of these futile fundie vs. rational people head-banging matches, but I was really planning refrain from this one. However, this
is just nonsense, and was more than I could stand.
So. I did a very quick and dirty websearch and found this from the National Earthquake Information Center in fewer than 2 minutes. The thing about war is similarly stupid – there has been war as long as there has been man. It’s the nature of the beast – people will fight and they will f**k.
BTW, I do realize I’m beating my head against a brick wall, but hey… We’re supposed to be fighting ignorance here, right?
Jess (fighting ignorance, not f**king it)
Jenkinsfan, do you honestly believe that none of us have ever heard this before? Do you believe that none of us have ever given anything thought to assertations you make?
I’ve given long thought to what you assert and come to my own conclusions, which are very different from yours, as you can guess.
What bothers many people about Fundamentalist Christians is not their beliefs, but they constantly badger the rest of us with questions that are personal (deeply personal) and aren’t satisfied with the answers 'til they agree with their own viewpoint.
Imagine have hundreds of people come up to you (separately, over a period of days or years) and ask you the very same question. The first few times it’s okay, after that, it gets annoying. This is what Fundamentalist Christians are doing! This is why the rest of us find it so annoying.
After years of it, I find it very annoying and can only react with hostility to it.
The hostility you’re experiencing isn’t from Satan (either the poster or the Truly Evil One), but from the pent-up frustration of people who are tired of hearing the same stuff bleated in their ears.
Woe to you, when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets. 
newbie alert
I totally agree. I’ve never understood the thought process that makes the jump from “I think this” to “Everyone ought to think this.”
This is especially true since, on a general level, fundamentalist Christians are morons. This is not said of any of the parties in this thread, because they all seem knowledgable people, but the church has a very high idiot factor. As such, most intellectuals have heard poor attempts at evangelism by the aforementioned morons, and it’s rather natural that people incapable of thought are unable to persuade those who rely on it.
There are, however, exceptions; some exist that are both Christian and intellectuals. Perhaps those would fare better here, but I imagine not; the contact this community has had with those incapable of proper discussion have understandably tainted their view of Christianity.
The verse says “no one comes to the Father except through me,” not "no one comes to the Father except through belief in me. It’s quite possible that he means through his teachings, moral code, and sacrifice, rather than a blind belief in him. Thus, considering only this verse, it’s quite possible that people who have never heard the name of Jesus but who have a passion for and a faith in a being greater than themselves and who do their best to live as morally as possible will be saved “through Jesus.” That’s why I was looking for other verses.
Well, I think this may have stuck in some people’s craw:
Maybe we need a new forum. I don’t know what it would be called, but all of the threads would have exactly one post, and exactly one view.
I guess maybe they could be condemned to heaven. Nah. 
Well, sure! See my link to John 14 above. I don’t understand the position that you can merely believe in Jesus and not love him and still be saved. There is probably a language limitation going on here – English probably doesn’t have a word with the exact connotation that this word for “believe” has in the original.
From John 14 – Jesus talking to his Apostles at the Last Supper:
Maybe since he said it four times, he meant it. But hey, maybe loving Jesus and having the Holy Spirit isn’t actually important… Nah!
I never tire of hearing this stuff, I’ve been studying religious mental illness ever since I left Mormonism. It is impossible to escape, it is the tragic human flaw from assuming life is a test, an idea derived from leaving a wild existence in nature, feeling angst, identifying with our domesticated animals, and assuming an unseen shepherd (it also has something to do with language development apart from consciousness, but that is way beyond the scope of boards open to zealots).
As far as Messianic soteriology goes (salvationism), the OP correctly identifies the sin part. One must first assume they have sinned by being alive and are being condemned for it. This is where is the thought virus leaves the language domain and attacks the body. It is a primitive virus and begins as a simple case of begging the question, (where the conclusion is contained in the premise). This then leads to a case of self-judgment, which leads to compound fear, guilt, inadequacy, and low expectations. In many cases, however, it tragically leads to full-blown misery, rage, self-pity, apathy to knowledge, hatred, and suicide. The cycle feeds on itself accordingly and is centered on the emotion of artificial love, which is said to be learned, because natural love has been removed or limited from childhood.
The problem is typical of many other thought viruses, such as credit card or drug abuse: The lower one feels they become before nature, and the more desperate, the more one needs to be artificially elevated in another realm. It is an addiction that feeds on itself and employs codependency to survive. The first signs of it are worrying about whether there is a God (not a divine realm) then, out of fear and paranoia, assume there is only one God, then assume the worst about him. It attacks those with less confidence and less ability to identify with others (a form of misanthropy), which then employs them to be agents of the destructive personality cult in question via the power of suggestion of rewards and punishments. It taps into fear and desire at all once, and blindsides the victim with their own victimology through self-loathing and self-pity, where any self-confidence is wrapped up in the cult of personality.
The bigger logical problem in all of this is simple and disturbing: One cannot prove logically that the deity they are worshipping (in this case Jesus, although he has many other names) is in fact who he claims to be. Which means, in all probability, that he is actually the devil. Why? Because if he doesn’t exist, he is the destroyer through mental illness and self-righteousness. And if he does exist in nature, he is the destroyer by the same, but through anonymous deception, and by having revealed that Satan and evil are both currently fully employed by God. Even by assuming nothing more than a mythical context, it is obvious that a contradiction (or deception) has attached itself to the idea of God through bogus family connections (ie, son of God). This is very clever, for it short-circuits a healthy suspicion of strangers.
Then what is really going on? Well, we can assume that if life is a divine test, then there would be no answers to this test, and God would certainly be testing to find those who would NOT fall for his cheap imitations. And if life is not a heavenly test, it is still an earthly test to see who will fall for the obvious artificial traps in a world society using ancient feudal control techniques.
Nature is synonymous with camouflage, for a reason, and for good reasons. I will not bother to condescend to religious people and ask them to get psychological help, for there is no good help to be found, sorry. Drugs won’t do it, Jesus won’t do it, Buddha won’t do it, etc, because they are based on recovery from reality. The trick is to understand reality, and nature, and get over it yourself, that is the key to mental independence. If you really want a next life, have a kid and raise them well, and make a better world for them while your at it. If you insist, go ahead and assume nothing about the divine realm, but our primitive ancestors swore it was earth and nature. If you think our primitive ancestors sat in trees, in darkness, exposed, huddled together from dangerous predators just so they could survive for you to come along and arrogantly deny their existence, and all of nature, and the future, then no wonder you fell for a volunteer human sacrifice as a religion.
I deal with insane self-righteous declarations of “let me speak for God to you heathens” everyday from Mormons, who have bigger ego dilemmas that the OP can only dream of having, (which is why they are more malignant and dangerous, because they appeal to deeper contradictions). Suffice to say that if God did not appear to Joseph Smith, then God did nothing to stop this deception. If God did appear to Joseph Smith, then you are wrong all over again.
Why not? I’m no witness virgin on this board, I might as well wade on in again.
Please do not follow the Christians. They are lost souls, seeking the greatest of things. That doesn’t change the fact that you too are a lost soul, seeking what you will. We are all lost souls, and every one of us will die, and be lost forever. No one who posts on this message board can save your soul from utter destruction.
By the way, I happen to believe that Jesus can do that. I join with many others in beseeching you to seek his love, in your own heart, so that you might join Him and His children in eternity, in joy, and love.
I make no threats on the Lord’s behalf, nor have I reports of threats He has made regarding you. I think He loves you so very much that He made a miracle of indescribable proportions whereby He, Himself became human, and lived as His own son, here on the Earth. I think He did it because He loves you, and wanted to reach out His hand to lead you into bliss, for all time.
If you wish to know more about Jesus, and God, and love, and eternal salvation, I commend to you the Word of God. The Bible is a book, where many people tell you of the Word. The Bible is not the Word itself. That Word will be spoken in your own heart, when you look there, to know the Love of God. Bless you, my brothers and sisters. Have faith! He is greater even than our own follies, and I know without question that He shall save every soul that will be saved.
Until the end, which may be near, or may be distant, let us love each other, in joyous celebration of His love.
I never tire of hearing this stuff, I’ve been studying non-religious mental illness ever since I became a deist. It is impossible to escape, it is the tragic human flaw from assuming life is a test, an idea derived from leaving a wild existence in nature, feeling angst, not identifying with our domesticated animals, and assuming a need for something beyond God.
As far as Capitalistic soteriology goes (materialism), we can first identify the poverty part. One must first assume they are poor by being alive and are being condemned for it. This is where the virus begins. It is a primitive virus and begins as a simple case of begging the question, (where the conclusion is contained in the premise). This then leads to a case of self-judgment of one’s own poverty, which leads to compound fear, guilt, inadequacy, and low expectations. In many cases, however, it tragically leads to full-blown misery, rage, self-pity, apathy to knowledge, hatred, and suicide. The cycle feeds on itself accordingly and is centered on the emotion of artificial wealth, which is said to be earned, because natural, holy wealth has been removed or limited from childhood.
The problem is typical of many other thought viruses: The poorer one feels they become before nature, and the more desperate, the more one needs to be artificially elevated in another realm. It is an addiction that feeds on itself and employs codependency to survive. The first signs of it are worrying about where you will sleep and what you will eat, then, out of fear and paranoia, assume there is only one sure bet – working for money, then assume that failure to serve God instead of money won’t imperil your spiritual existence. It attacks those with less confidence and less ability to identify with others (a form of misanthropy), which then employs them to be agents of the destructive property system in question via the power of suggestion of rewards and punishments. It taps into fear and desire at all once, and blindsides the victim with their own victimology through self-loathing and self-pity, where any self-confidence is wrapped up in purchasing property and working hard for money.
The bigger logical problem in all of this is simple and disturbing: One cannot prove logically that the deity they are worshipping (in this case Money, although he has many other names) is in fact all it claims to be. Which means, in all probability, that they are actually serving the devil. Why? Because if he doesn’t exist, he is the destroyer through mental illness and a false sense of security. And if he does exis, he is the destroyer by the same, but through anonymous deception, and by having revealed that Satan and evil are both currently fully employed by Money. Even by assuming nothing more than a mythical context, it is obvious that a contradiction (or deception) has attached itself to the idea of money through bogus partial truths (ie, it is merely a store for value). This is very clever, for it short-circuits a healthy suspicion of the economic power structure.
Then what is really going on? Well, we can assume that if life is the endless pursuit of wealth, then there would be no end to such mindlessness, and capitalism would certainly be duping people into falling for it’s cheap imitation of true natural and spiritual wealth. And if life is meant to be this way, it is still an earthly test to see who will fall for the obvious artificial traps in a world society using ancient feudal control techniques.
I will not bother to condescend to capitalist people and ask them to get psychological help, for there is no good help to be found, sorry. Drugs won’t do it, Communism won’t do it, winning the lottery won’t do it, etc, because they are based on recovery from reality. The trick is to understand reality, and nature, and get over it yourself, that is the key to mental independence. If you really want a next life, have a kid and raise them well, and make a better world for them while your at it. If you insist, go ahead and assume nothing about the current system, but our primitive ancestors swore living in harmony earth and nature was superior. If you think our primitive ancestors sat in trees, in darkness, exposed, huddled together from dangerous predators just so they could survive for you to come along and arrogantly pervert all of nature, and the future, then no wonder you fell for a volunteer human sacrifice as capitalism.
I deal with insane self-assured declarations of “money will never fail me and all the social ills and wars and prisons which come from this system aren’t my fault even though I pay for them” everyday from capitalists, who have bigger ego dilemmas that the OP can only dream of having, (which is why they are more malignant and dangerous, because they appeal to deeper contradictions). Suffice to say that most of the servants of GodMoney don’t want to stop this deception.
Jmull,
You must to learn to think for yourself. Religion teaches you to accept a template of standard ideas, then fill in the blanks with your own experience and accept it as original. I take it from your post you are fleeing from a perceived negative towards a perceived positive. Advice: When your car won’t start, always double-check your jumper cables are hooked up right, or you’ll burn out your alternator and your voltage regulator. We wouldn’t that would we?
Polycarp: *Unlike all the other saviors of legend, specific time and place data are provided for the life and actions of Jesus of Nazareth, with the theoretical possibility of (in)validation by outside records. *
Whoa there Poly, you know I love ya and generally have the utmost confidence in your assertions as well as respect for your wisdom—but is this so? I don’t know exactly how you are using the term “savior”, but if we mean by it “a human being whose life inspired the foundation of a major religion and whose nature and/or achievements are considered by believers to be the bedrock of divine truth”—which, after all, is about as far as outside (in)validation would be able to go in the case of Jesus of Nazareth—then there are quite a few who make the cut. There is almost as much historical evidence for the life of Gautama Buddha and that of Mahavira (the founder of the Jain religion) as there is for that of Jesus, and for Muhammad there’s considerably more.
As for your larger point, I quite agree that although there are few things more annoying than having somebody smugly contradict your sincere and intense beliefs while proclaiming the rightness of his own (all for your own good, of course), it serves no useful purpose to be impolite in return. (Btw, nice example of how to do it right, Tris.)