against dualism

Aspiditra: My definition of physical is “manifesting the laws of physics”, and my definition of the laws of physics is “our attempt at understanding the universe using logic and mathematics”. “Interacts with the detectable universe in some way” is just a collary. In any case, I think we both agree this is a nitpick. Any definition can be used to prove a point so long as it doesn’t contradict itself.

Re the electron-wave/physical-non-physical analogy: We can’t split an electron into a wave and a particle spatially, but we can do it conceptually - by calling it a wave and a particle we have already done so. To continue the analogy, if we can agree that part of the universe is only particles (which of course isn’t the case IRL), then, if that is the only part of the universe that we can get our data from, we don’t care about any non-particle (wave) aspects of this electron. It can have both particle and wave aspects, and they can be physically inseperable, but only the particle aspects can interact with other particles, so that’s all we care about in this particle world. Actually I like this analogy, it works well.

Ramanujan: I agree with everything you said. Maybe with two people arguing the same point, it will be a little clearer, since we will both approach it different ways and I don’t have to sound so dogmatic about it. As you said, it is a pretty trivial proof, and it’s kind of a matter of if you get it you get it and if you don’t you don’t.

For those not aware of one of the classic argument contra physicalism (the opposite of dualism), I will briefly tell the tale.

Imagine a female named Mary. Mary is a philosopher’s experiment. Quite unethically, perhaps, but nonetheless, she was raised in a completely grayscale environment. No color at all. We could perhaps imagine that she was forced to wear some strange contacts (whatever, this is just a thought experiment).

In this room Mary lives in, she is presented with all physical facts, say, via a computer. She learns and learns and reads and reads and eventually, bam, she’s done. She now possesses all material facts. The physicalists dust off their hands and say, “Mary now knows everything.” She is allowed to leave the room and goes outside to stumble upon a rosebush.

Encountering this in regular daylight we might be led to wonder: did she learn something new (specifically, what red looks like)?

The biggest problem with physicalism is this: its inability to explain the qualities of objects. But now, does this help us out with dualism? I don’t know. It doesn’t seem to help dualism any as, point of fact, none of us can say what red looks like. So dualists would also have this problem, the problem of not being able to describe qualia (how something appears to a person).

Dualism is strongly rooted in our language because, I think, our language serves us most of the time to refer to objective referents. Since we sometimes need to discuss ourselves, it is only natural to then posit the mind as an object as well. And, after all, does it not seem like my mind—my consciousness—is a place only I can visit? I mean, don’t I know what red looks like?

I don’t want to revisit my own thread on Wittgenstein’s Box, but I want to say that we should not accept a dualist/physicalist dichotomy right off.

Ramujan’s comment on logical atoms makes me want to say things like qualia are still physical, but since we use them to describe things they themselves are not describable. This seems tolerable, doesn’t it?

But the problem that dualists face when they try to put forward their argument is that physicalists, their opponents, want evidence of dualism. Any such request is quite paradoxical for several reasons, most of which have been touched on in the thread already, for if we have evidence of dialism then this evidence can be studied and presents itself as a physical effect, and so comes back to physicalism. But then, wait, did we just prove from a rationalist platform that dualism is impossible? Which makes physicalism true a priori. Not quite a tenable position, I should think.

Dualism finds its home best, IMO, in effects without apparent causes in the behavior of humans (since, after all, we are talking about “mind”). But it doesn’t have to be that strict, for finding events without causes in the universe at large could lead one to say that these affects must also be going on in us, too, since we are part of the universe, and so dualism can find a home here in a broken causality. But this sounds familiar: physical evidence of a non-physical thing.

A dualist needs to do this, then, to maintain their position in the face of physical evidence: make something happen without a cause; that is, predict and event that should otherwise have no cause, and then show that this event happens. But hell, the funny thing is that we do this all the time: we speak of intention, we act, and many times others cannot say why and couldn’t have predicted it themselves.

Sure, the mind manifests itself in the body, and the body can be controlled by outside means, but when it isn’t it is still going. And let’s run with this thought. For we want to say that we can say, formally, why the body does something; that is, in some hypothetical way, human behavior can be completely determined once a person’s brain (and the environment in which it acts in) is determined. And why would we say this? Well, for example, when we stimulate this part of the brain we trigger the patient to raise his arm, or convulse, and when we remove this part the patient can no longer speak, and when we clip this it seems as if there are two people present (this one has been researched, quite strange; it wasn’t actually clipped, though, just numbed so it temporarily didn’t function… eahc half of the brian was like a different person). So, see? Physical effects.

Sure, but why would the dualist argue here? Of course you can control the physical effects with physical effects. The question is one of determination, IMO. If human behavior is essentially underdetermined (that it, there is a theoretical limitation on the prediction of human behavior from physical evidence without physical interference—i.e-simple observation) then dualism might just be where we stand, for if the physical cannot explain what happens, then why does this person do such-and-such?

But there is no theoretical limit on observation - only practical limitations. If we are speaking theoretically (which we are), there are any number of ways to find out what is going inside someone’s mind without any interference.

Also, as Aspiditra pointed out earlier, physical things as we know them are either determined or random (or both), but free will falls into an entirely different category. How can we tell the difference between randomness and free will just from physical evidence?

I think there is a very real theoretical limitation to observation: qualia.

Yes, but it was the existence (or more precisely, the physical evidence) of qualia that I was questioning in the first place! Without some kind of outside evidence of its existence, using qualia to prove dualism is circular reasoning.

Eris; I’m not understanding the difference between ‘dualism’ and ‘physicalism’; to me they seem to be the same idea.

I’ve still yet to comprehend how dualism suggests an ineffable state of being as a necessity; I believe dualism itself runs this idea into the ground.

The way I keep seeing this is that monism (which I’ve said is basically an impossible conclusion through dualism); can be virtualized, yet is evidenced to not be the permeating idea behind ‘all of this’.

People can become catatonic through ‘virtualized’ omniscience - and yet they can still be physically revived of that catatonia because there are other properties out there which can always unlock a virtualization and return the entity.

I believe that it can be concluded that actual omniscience can be tapped into, but that the abstraction of that quality cannot share the same ‘integration’ as the quality itself.

That is to say; that a non-sentient state of being can be actually omniscient; and interacted with by sentient beings who necessecarily cannot be omniscient. Further more; they can corrupt the omniscient quality in the same means was with the virtualized form - by physically applying a corruption to the translation process; rendering it sentient.

There seems to be a redundancy built into this quality; such that you ‘have about as much free-will as a rock’ if ‘you’ become omniscient. If someone or something from the outside tweaks with that for whatever reason; you come back.

Qualia to me seems an issue of both ‘discernableness’
(what actually gives something quality in the first place - as opposed to something we completely ignore (via. any concievable means to humor rationality)
and a sort of ‘faith of memory’ - or consistency if you will.

It is implied that you can always walk up and kill, torture and mame a pacifist predictably; as their qualia allows it for you.

It is implied that trees can always be burned for fuel to keep one warm; as their qualia allows it for you.

The tree in this sense is ‘devout’ to a very specific religion or faith; which maintains a memory structure via the virtue of practicing this faith within the confines of ‘what we have here’.

This faith, necessarily allows it to be vulnerable; as the ‘type’ of faith chosen becomes a resource to other types of faith chosen.

Even an omniscient state to this degree; is a resource which cannot control itself outside of being a resource which can actually be disabled through its vulnerability to that degree.

It is to suggest; as was being suggested in the territory thread; that we can use a symbol set to map all the natural operators and our natural language into one process; and engage with that process. The process is always there, it’s simply a matter of access; and tapping into that resource. We can become that resource; but we cease to be in the sense that we ordinarily think of having some sort of absolute say.

Omniscient state has as much of a say in making us use it or not use it as a tree does; yet by corrupting something like this; we are not actually destroying it, we just begin to access something else - diverting our attention through this ‘corruption’.

It is still accessable; the double redundancy of symbolic interaction is still intact for abstraction - existence is never going to poof to that degree; as the mere understanding provides that all such endevour becomes ‘eternally’ fruitless.

I think, through dualism, we have a compelling evidence that the perception of “nothing” does not abstract outside of existence; but is a ‘necessary’ perception for the allowing of ‘de-tatchment’ in a perceptual sense.

Monism, or ‘nothing at all’ cannot be rational at least; as there is no operator or other operand; hance no possibility of recursive anlysis through a process like division or what-have you.
It can’t recursively analyze itself; or be analyzed from within looking out. This argument necessarily proposes that something (‘recirsiveness’ ‘abstraction’ in this sense); comes from nothing at all - cycling in and out – into nothing, from nothing, into nothing, from nothing… the idea of permanence itself (the monistic concept) cannot have a free-will; as it is forced from nothingness and possesses no tangible platform from which to operate.

It also suggests that there is no quality of permanence about it!

When this quality of permanence is abstracted to existence; the ‘ineffable’ theory of ‘duality’ (which cannot be duality, but monism - if you’re not following); concludes that the term (concept of) nothing itself is mis-appied and meaningless; as we construct it as absence of even a quality like chaos or irrationality.

The ineffable theory of duality disproves itself through duality.
The denial of duality argues unillateral permanence as the ineffable - yet the reality! If this belief wasn’t being virtualized; none of us would be here.

Hmm… more to add; but I’ll leave it here for ‘chewing’

-Justhink

Evidence of its [qualia] existence? Like recognizing the flavor of coffee? The color green? I’m not saying it is proof of dualism per se, but a limitation of physicalism. If we accept the physicalist/dualist bifurcation then of course it is a proof of dualism.

Some things in the OP…

One, the information flow from physical to non-physical only is called epiphenomenalism, something I sometimes like to consider we’re a part of, but doesn’t quite seem to cut the mustard. Two, your dismissal of the non-physical world is startlingly similar to the dismissal of the physical one in idealism (a al AHunter’s mention).

Let’s consider what you’re asking for here: physical evidence of the non-physical. If there’s a problem in supplying this, it is because of the way you’ve limited the response. That’s what I tried to touch on in my post. By looking at this problem through that question you come to the a priori state of saying physicalism must be true. That seems quite peculiar, don’t you think?

“”""""""“It can’t recursively analyze itself; or be analyzed from within looking out. This argument necessarily proposes that something (‘recirsiveness’ ‘abstraction’ in this sense); comes from nothing at all - cycling in and out – into nothing, from nothing, into nothing, from nothing… the idea of permanence itself (the monistic concept) cannot have a free-will; as it is forced from nothingness and possesses no tangible platform from which to operate.”"""""

This is worded in an unecessarily confusing way.

The arguement that a monism CAN allow for analysis; necessarily proposes…

What you have here; is a situation where ineffableness is continuously discarded as more and more memory permancences are abstracted out. (you’re mother is still in the kitchen; EXISTING (i.e. discernable, a difference which does not come from or become nothing at all))

The zero; keeps being discarded as a new zero emerges in the ‘new’ ‘dualistic’ framework… however the new one always becomes the new zero; which is a process of infinite regress - showing (like zenos paradox) that we can’t actually get anywhere or cannot actually exist.

The logic itself is misleading; because zero never exists, and when it ‘becomes’ one it is still zero; much like that standard rule of dividing by zero. You can’t ‘essense of all this’ force zero to exist as anything other than zero; even through process. If one argues that; they need to redefine zero.

Just because infants eventually reach the cognitive age of abstracting permanence; doesn’t mean (by a long shot) that they have abstracted all of the abstractions of permanence – to the degree that this process is measurable; ones cognitive age (location) can be assigned on this principle alone. The very evolution of awareness suggests that monism is always the intended discard - that actual process of awareness is the discarding of monism as it GROWS. Just because it hasn’t spacially grown into a particular abstraction of permanence doesn’t disprove the trend; or even call the trend into doubt as I’m arguing.

Monism is always referenced in regards to the perception of homeostasis (memory comparisons that are not equal; and the abstraction of other memory sequences (altered homeostasis) to alter ones own. - from our vantage point; these are considered abstracted completely into what we would consider the laws of motion or ‘inanimate’ effects of memory. A rock travelling through space and colliding with another rock are considered to have homeostasis embedded into the motion itself; rather than an abstraction of the motion itself. Their perceptual metabolism is automated to this degree - much like our breathing is.

-Justhink

“”“you’re mother is still in the kitchen”""

Apologies for the remark; I’ve been in a tread where these types of symbols are operative.

-Justhink

“”"""""“Mary now knows everything.” She is allowed to leave the room and goes outside to stumble upon a rosebush.

Encountering this in regular daylight we might be led to wonder: did she learn something new (specifically, what red looks like)?

The biggest problem with physicalism is this: its inability to explain the qualities of objects."""""""""

You didn’t state that she possessed ‘bi-chronism’; which if she knew everything; all the data would be referenced to her sensory ‘tentacles’ to the possibility of perceptual abstraction.
You assume that complete knowledge means she automatically wills all these sensory tentacles to her perceptual being.

She can understand that there are many unecessary monisms of necessity until such time as she aquires these sensory abstractions; at which point complete knowledge may come in the form of a quest; as the computer is telling you: “You cannot have complete knowledge until you aquire this sensory abstraction; as you will be rendered obsolete in that precise instance to those who have this apendage.”

Another means to approach this is to draw out the color red into a language specific metaphor coded into her sensory capacity; much like Stevie Wonder is somehow able to map the proper symbols into language that the seeing cannot discern as ‘different’ (had they not known otherwise); into song.

It may be possible for a blind person to have red symbolically mapped to another sense (touch (frequency vibration) - sound, holograpic SMELL! etc…) that no experimental trial is going to show otherwise. He would effectively pass a "turing’ test to that degree.

I think you’re assuming that any language cannot be mapped out to any other language… where a person effectively becomes bi-lingual; such that the difference becomes monistic and irrelevant.

-Justhink

the irony of that statement is too much for words…

anyway, on a more serious note, the argument from qualia presents an interesting dilemma. it certainly does seem as though i have a definite representation of what red is. i would argue though, first, that this does not necessarily point to dualism, and second, though it is a bit off topic, that qualia do not necessarily provide a semantic content that is otherwise lacking. this isn’t completely off-topic, since it helps to reiterate the first point.

so, let us suppose that there exists a concept of “red”. this is clearly not a concept that you can read about in a book. it can’t be represented in terms of knowledge. to someone looking for a reason to advocate dualism, this is enticing. there are non-dualists (searle, for example), however who regard qualia as very interesting things indeed. rather, they see it as a refutation of eliminative materialism and similar thoughts, that the mind can be explained entirely with knowledge of the brain and its workings. the claim is not that the mind is separate from the body, but instead that knowledge of the body does not necessarily yield all there is to know about the mind. i suppose the difference is subtle, but the latter is not a claim that the mind is non-physical.

now, as far as a materialist reply to the problem of qualia, i think i have what might constitute one. it sort of builds off work done by others (tye, akins, et al), who propose that experience and knowledge are not two separate things. that is, the qualia for seeing “red” is perfectly correlated with how red affects the brain and body. the same goes with pain. my claim is that the qualia IS the correlation, that the relationship between what something is physically, and how it physically affects the body. to use a classic example of the “problem” qualia presents, the inverted spectrum, one has no guarantee that “red” to one person is “red” to another. the way they affect the brain may be similar, and their relationship to other colors is the same, but since we cannot express what “red” is, it cannot be said to be a univerisal concept. to me, rather than claiming this is a problem, i claim that this only leads to the conclusion that it is the relation between the physical instances, rather than being something physical itself. i think my biggest problem with the thought experiment presented by erislover is that mary does not know everything if she does not know how the sight of a red rose will effect her. if indeed she did know everything, she would be able to represent it, so i don’t think anyone would claim that mary knew everything.

anyway, that’s my take on qualia. i think that it is incorrect to claim that eliminative materialism is the only alternative to dualism. i do not claim, though, that eliminative materialism is proved inaccurate by qualia.

-d-squared

Hmm… David, is this more along the lines of your OP?

If one accepts axiomically the dualism of existence/non-existence; then they have in one stroke dissolved the possibility of contradiction; as non-existence contradicts existence.

Logic depends on the idea that ideas can contradict each-other; and that contradictions are puzzles to work through or deselect.

You’re using a contradiction to frame the first logic; which inverts the logical tool “contradiction” so that it represents all other forms of perception - effectively rendering the idea “contradiction” itself null - the very idea which logic uses to seperate rational from irrational.

???

Is that warm?

-Justhink

Justhink, “axiomically” isn’t a word in the English language. What is your intended meaning?

I have been reading through your posts and I have to say its very hard work, and I’m still no wiser as to what you are talking about.

Or is it me being too shallow and not “getting it”?

Erislover:

I am assuming the existence of the material world in my proof. Most people in this age of science would agree with me, but I wouldn’t be able to prove it. Idealism is just as correct as physicalism IMO in that neither are dualist.

Is there some kind of evidence besides physical evidence?

And no, it seems more peculiar to me to reject physicalism after coming to that conclustion a priori.

Also, by questioning the dichotomy between dualism and physicalism, are you saying that things like qualia can have physical explanations? If that is the case, then I wouldn’t call it dualism at all, but I guess that is just a matter of semantics.

Justhink:That is better, thank you.

I do not accept axiomatically (axiomatically: pertaining to a self-evident truth) the distinction between existence and non-existence. I think it’s possible there is a distinction, and it’s possible there is not. (At least until we start looking at the problem of interaction, at which point we can eliminate the first option). I think that’s the root of our disagreement.

In asking this in a conversation about dualism do you see the hidden assumption? “Yes, there is non-physical evidence.” You cannot then ask, “How does this manifest itself?” because you’re framing the problem in a physicalist perspective then; that is, you aren’t taking the response seriously.

Almost precisely! Qualia are what we use to assess, create, and otherwise interpret description. They are the “bottoming out” point of semantics.

Almost. This still leads me to conclude that qualia are still out of reach of physicalism, however. If physicalism were true then qualia would be objectively studiable only as much as they correspond to brain states. The limitation remains that I still wouldn’t know what coffee tastes like to you.

Ramanujan and Justhink, the point is that Mary should be able to learn what it is like to see red without the subjective experience of seeing red. If this cannot be accomplished then we have a blank spot, epistemologically. This doesn’t make a death knell to monism, as idealism can still stand quite pure and so can physicalism (and in fact I consider the two to be identical), but there is no way to decide between monism and dualism, IMO. Of course, I wouldn’t be discussing this if I were absolutely sure :slight_smile:

Imagine a person capable of telepathy, for example. Someone who can read your mind. They find you looking at a rose. Do they see it how you see it or do they interpret what you see with their own qualia? In my case (and I think in Ramanujan’s case as well) they must interpret it with their own qualia.

Interested parties in a qualia discussion I had which I might feel like revisiting can check here.

But to say that qualia exist is pretty much saying that the physical world is different than it would be if they didn’t exist. By sending signals over the phone line to tell me that qualia exist, you have committed a physical act, and you presumably wouldn’t be doing so if if they didn’t exist. We can call the difference between the physical world with and without qualia the physical evidence.

Well, I can’t agree with your first sentence. I can imagine trisecting an angle with a compass and straightedge. You can understand that (as these physical signals get to you in some physical way). But that doesn’t mean anyone can trisect any angle using a compass and straightedge. Or construct a regular heptagon. Or square the circle.

Which is my problem both with physicalism and with idealism: we can imagine things that (seemingly) cannot happen. In idealism, since reality is Mind we should be able to find paradoxes manifested quite literally. In physicalism, since our mental conceptions of paradoxes are physical, we should be able to find paradoxes manifested quite literally. Now, the latter isn’t borne out yet as we do not completely understand the brain. But these sorts of things seem quite cumbersome to deal with, logically speaking.

How does Godel’s proof look in my head? How did it look in his? Is there a difference between understanding an issue or method and simply being able to mimic it?

Well yes, the physical workings of the mind are cumbersome; nobody said they would be simple. We still don’t really know how the brain works, so we can’t use that knowledge to either prove or disprove dualism. Meanwhile though, we can use logic to disprove dualism, and then assume that science will eventually understand how we can imagine concepts such as squaring the circle and qualia.

And also, if you’re saying that these kinds of concepts can exist in the non-physical world but not the physical, that still doesn’t prove anything, because it is using the existence of the non-physical to prove dualism, which again is circular reasoning.

I am not trying to prove dualism. I am trying to critique physicalism.

Our great debates on the SDMB sometimes, fascinatingly, seem to me to recreate the actual historical development of their subjects. We have our own Platos, our Aristotles, Kants, Russells; even our John Searles and David Chalmerses. And of course, our Descarteses.

I prefer to bulletpoint my thoughts…

  1. The assumption that the nonphysical cannot affect the physical is mere prejudice UNLESS one has snuck that stipulation into the definition of the word “physical.”

  2. But such a definition is already a biased, question-begging definition. Physicists et al may prefer it, because it identifies the sort of entity with which they are capable of dealing. But any number of other definitions are not only possible, but entirely reasonable. The etymological root is simply Greek for “what grows naturally” (in effect). I think the popular “inner definition” (not usually put into words) is that a physical thing is anything you can see and feel while you are awake, relatively stable and persistent in time, and accessible to others as well without serious disagreement as to its observable properties.

  3. The point being: one must be clear to distinguish propositions that are true by definition (and thus always the case) from those that recapitulate seqences of events that are empirically found to be invariant so far, but are not logically necessitated. If one adopts a fuzzier-edged and more generous definition of the word “physical,” there is no reason to insist that interaction between physical and nonphysical entities raises a difficulty.

  4. All laws of science as such–that is, as distinguished from the so-called Laws of Thought, like “a thing cannot be other than itself”–are inherently approximate and, in a certain related sense, probabilistic. Heisenberg has nothing to do with it. Not one of the empirically derived constants (eg, Hubble’s Constant, G, C, etc.) has a determinate quantification, nor is it even possible that it could–for there is no meaning to the suggestion that one might KNOW the completed decimal expansion of such a measurement (where “KNOW” incorporates “knowing with certitude that one knows truly”). Science looks at the data and offers up (somewhat disguised) judgments of the likelihood of a repetition. If, eg, the bat hits the ball and the ball passes right through the bat, scientific law is not in ruins–improbable things do happen now and then.

  5. To speak of two “worlds”–physical and otherwise–tosses down something of a red herring. The world is the world, and reality is whatever happens to be the case. Better to speak of two classes or species of entity co-inhabitting The Real. (“Entity,” by the way, just means “a real something” and does not imply personhood.)

  6. Solipsists excepted, we need no evidence of the existence of physical entities as defined by the “popular” definition, as we verify their reality every time we make the requisite observations–which is all the time, more or less.

  7. But the existence of physical entities as described by the stricter definition must be counted as doubtful; for surely we are entitled to term something doubtful for which there is no evidence whatsoever, nor is any evidence conceivable. Neither I nor you (I presume you exist) knows of anything, nor can know of anything, except insofar as it is present to oneself (ie, to the “I-Myself”). The name for the mode by which something is thus present is “thought” (etc.). Whatever is supposed to be happening in the retina, optic nerve, or brain, a visual object does not exist to me–nor you–until it is seen, until a certain Self has a certain mental experience. And so with hearing and the other senses. And so with all forms of reasoning, abstraction, imagination, conceptualization: there is no ground whatever for claiming the existence of the characteristic objects of these kinds apart from the assumption that the objects are being mentally experienced. (Even an inferred object is, itself, a mental thing.)

  8. Thus, if there are any “physical” entities (by the strict definition put into play by the OP), they are like Kant’s noumena; we can know nothing about them.

  9. By contrast, we can be certain of the existence of “nonphysical” entities–we know of nothing else.

  10. But some may join me in finding the dualist alternative (rendered possible by the “popular” definition of “physical”) a more reasonable and appealing point of view.