If you had an adult child who was having premarital sex, and you cut them out of your life because of it, and someone said “UrbanChic hates people who have premarital sex,” I’d have no quarrel with the statement.
I think you’re dead wrong:
Keyes is fighting against same-sex marriage. I’m a guy who likes other guys, and I’d one day like to get married. That sure as hell is my business.
And when you get people calling you a “selfish hedonist” without knowing jack shit about you, then see whether or not you get upset about what they have to say.
As I’ve said countless times before, that’s my religion too, jack. And I’m getting pretty fucking sick of people subverting my religion to perpetuate their own prejudices. If you’ve got instances of where the Bible is pretty clear about condemning homsexuality, bring 'em up. All I know is that all the passages that have been thrown in my face to tell me I’m a sinner, the only think they’re clear about condemning is promiscuity, lust, and hedonism. It makes a pretty clear stand in favor of devotion, honor, commitment, and love.
But I’m far from being a Bible scholar, so I’ve no doubt someone could come along with a passage that really does make it explicit. Doesn’t change a damn thing, because:
This goes beyond religion, and it’s unacceptable for people to perpetuate prejudice and discrimination based on their interpretation of a book. There are plenty of people who are self-avowed atheists and still come down hard on the homos. Using religion as justification is nothing more than an excuse, a dodge.
I have plenty of respect for religion. I have absolutely no respect for blind followers of a religion. I have no respect for anyone who just points to a book and says, “Well it’s right there, so I’m not hateful. It’s just a difference of opinion, and my faith is every bit as valid as your beliefs.”
If there were a passage in the Bible that said outright that Latinos are lazy, then would that make discrimination against them okay? Could I say, “well, it’s right there in black and white and red. You can’t help being Latino, but it’s just a challenge that God has given you that you have to overcome. Suppress that Latino lifestyle, with your gangs and your bouncing cars and your drug deals and your spicy food, and act like a WASP and go with God.” No, I’d expect people to read it, ask themselves why a Holy Book would say such a thing, and then build their ethical and moral systems accordingly.
There are plenty of passages in the Bible that do say that women are lying, deceitful, and manipulative. Anyone who used that to legislate discrimination against women would get zero tolerance. And it’s not a case of dismissing their religious beliefs, it’s a case of being able to use the brain that God gave you and recognize what is wrong and what is right.
I don’t claim to speak for kaylasdad, but I’m assuming he’s referring to the fact that the whole “debate” about the Bible’s stance on homosexuality comes up around once a month here on the SDMB.
Well, I agree with most of what you said. I’m just tyring to get people to see it from the other side. Can you explain to be why homosexuality isn’t wrong? Can you prove you were born that way? If you believe in the Bible, please explain why God would make people gay if he thinks it is wrong? How is being homosexual not a matter of free will?
Once again, I hate defending Alan Keyes. But to say he hates gays might be going too far in my opinion.
I am, unfortunetly, well aware that homophobia is quite common in this country. Rarity is not a prerequisite for bigotry.
I’m not talking about families in general, I am specifically talking about the relationship of a parent towards his or her child. That is an entirely different relationship than that between spouses, or siblings, or even a child toward his or her parent.
There are too many other variables when it comes to serious drug abuse to make that analogy workable in any meaningful sense. If your kid is so strung out on drugs that he’s making death threats against his parents, or endangering their lives or the lives of their other children/grandchildren, then cutting that child out of the parent’s life may be a necessity. I cannot conceive of a situation in which a parent would be put in a similar circumstance because their child is gay.
You heard the bit where he said that homosexuals are, by definition, “selfish hedonists,” right? Sounds a lot like hate to me.
Alan Keyes has actively campaigned to prevent homosexuals from being allowed to marry. That’s about as “up in my business” as he can be without actually hiding in my bed.
So Latinos, and blacks, and other “mud people” are the sons of Ham, and are marked by God’s displeasure by the tone of their skin. Thankfully, not exactly a common view point, but one that is held by many, and is every bit as supported by the Bible as homophobia.
When read in context, and in the original language, nowhere does the Bible condemn homosexuality. Such interpretations are a result of mistranslations and selective reading. Here’s a GD thread where the case against the fundamentalist reading is laid out by those far more knowledgable than I.
I don’t really give a shit what they base their hatred on. It’s still hatred.
Give that man a cookie.
Or a gold star, or something.
I appreciate your efforts, but honestly, the position for which you are acting as devil’s advocate already has plenty of earnest supporters. You are not providing a perspective that is new or unfamiliar to any of us. We’ve all heard this same shit, over and over. It was unconvincing then, it’s unconvincing now.
Because it harms no one, and takes nothing away from anyone else.
Can you offer a reason why someone would choose to be gay?
He wouldn’t, and he doesn’t. The Bible, especially the New Testament, fully supports this view.
Take a look at the failure rates for organizations that claim to be able to “cure” homosexuality. Uniformly, they are in the high ninties. And this is among a group that has self-selected from the homosexual population to be the most motivated to choose a different orientation. They cannot do it. It is not a matter of free will. It is not a choice.
I’d say it doesn’t go far enough, but I am attempting to be more moderate in my outlook.
The other side is full of shit, just like Holocaust deniers, creation scientists, and people who put ketchup on hot dogs.
I’m going to join the dogpile now, after lurking to see what develops here. I say bull fucking shit. Keyes and his kind - Helms, Phelps, Falwell, et al, have been in our business for years, intend to stay in our business, and are acting to get more in our business. We have every reason to be upset about what he and the others say about us, especially when they constantly tell us we are not fit to live. We have every reason to be upset about what he and the others say about us. How about when they cozy up to politicians to exclude and marginallize us and push for laws to do it? You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
Bullshit again. It is a valid comparison. “All gays are queer homo fags who want to party all night, seduce your children and destroy your marriages” sounds pretty clear. Keeping gays from getting equal job potection or any recognition/respect for wanting to build a life together are stopped at every turn. One motherfucker even made jokes about killing gays (yes, sunshine some people do kill them too). Using the bible to justify it says to me the same as “I don’t have any fucking balls to just tell you I just fucking hate your sorry ass”. The bible is pretty damn clear about judging people. Any comment on that? The bible is pretty clear about getting your own house in order. How about it? The bible is pretty clear about who is NOT going to cast the first stone. Or maybe you want to talk about bastards like Keyes, Phelps, Falwell, etc who twist the bible for their own personal gain and to spread their vile filth. The bible calls them false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing. Finally, where the fuck does it say “thou shalt cast out thine own children”? Where does it say the shepherd shall abandon his own?
It doesn’t matter to me whether Keyes hates gays or is just using them for his own personal advantage, either way he is a waste of air.
Lastly, looking further down this thread, it looks like you think we have to explain and justify ourselves. The hell we do.
[QUOTE=Cervaise]
The other side is full of shit, just like Holocaust deniers, creation scientists, and people who put ketchup on hot dogs.[/QUOT
To compare Alan Keyes to a holocaust denier is a bit absurd in my opinion.
Can you explain to me why it is? Can you explain to me why it matters one bit to anyone? You say you’re trying to get people to see it from “the other side,” why does that mean the obligation is on homosexuals to justify themselves and prove that they’re good people? Why isn’t the obligation on those who would demean me or discriminate against me to explain why they’re doing these things?
I can’t prove it, and I don’t care to prove it. Heterosexuals don’t have to prove that they were born with opposite-sex desire before their relationships are acknowledged and before they’re given equal rights. It doesn’t matter whether I was born this way or not. All that matters is what I do as a result of it.
Please explain why God thinks being gay is wrong. Once again, you’re going at it the wrong way. You start with the assumption that homosexuality is wrong, then say that it must be a choice because God wouldn’t create people who were inherently sinful.
But I’m at a loss to see which part is “wrong” exactly. Is it seeing someone as a person instead of as nothing more than his or her genitalia? Is it being in love? Is it pledging devotion and honor and commitment to another person? Is it wanting to raise a family?
You’re getting closer to the point. Again, I can’t prove and don’t particularly care to prove whether or not being homosexual is innate. I can only provide my own anecdotal evidence (as one who spent years trying everything I could think of to not be homosexual) and the evidence of hundreds if not thousands of other homosexuals who say the same thing.
But the key point: it is all about behavior. It is about free will, and the choices that we make. Desire itself is meaningless, and so is sex. They can only have a moral value attached to them when we take into account how we act on it and what our motivation is for doing it.
These people say that it’s all about behavior and that they don’t hate or judge people because of who they are, but because of what they do. So they deny them the chance to pledge commitment to each other through marriage, or share their prosperity with a child through adoption. And if it’s not because the person is homosexual, as they claim, because of course they don’t hate homosexuals, then we can only conclude that the immoral acts they’re indulging in are getting married and raising families.
These people are telling me that a straight man who marries a woman out of pure physical attraction or lust or greed or avarice is more moral than a gay man who marries a man out of love. That’s not just subverting religion, that’s subverting any rational code of morality. Is this the “other side” that I’m supposed to appreciate?
[QUOTE=brickbacon]
Irrelevant. The statement was that he is full of shit.
Did Keyes make the remark I bolded in your response? I can see you guys are taking all this a little too personally. I think many of you are as biased as people who disagree with homosexuality. Although I agree with you, I think you make it harder to convice people you are right when you are angry and condescending toward anyone who disagrees. My whole point was that unlike many others who share his opinion, Keyes doesn’t strike me as someone who hates gay people. He just thinks its sinful and wrong. Rather than make an assertion that he has publically said things that make his hatred of gays apparent, we have gotten into a debate about homosexuality as a whole.
Most people seem to be basing his “obvious hatred” of gays on three things. The “hedonist” comment, his daughter’s comments, and his strong opposition to gay marraige. I don’t think opposing gay marriage means you hate gays. Even if you accept his daughter’s comments as truth, she seems to allude to the fact that she and her father disagreed about many things. Her coming out may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back. I doubt her homosexuality surprised him. I would suspect that he thought she might be gay. What may have led him to disown her was her public statements against him, and by extention, everything he has campaigned for publically. That doesn’t mean he isn’t a scumbag, but it also doesn’t mean he hates gays.
Why do you feel he is full of shit?
To anyone who claims that calling gays “selfish hedonists”, and disowning your gay daughter; and trying to deny them equal rights do not constitute hate…
If you met someone of an unnamed religion who said that Christians were corrupt, hateful and hellbound; but declared that he didn’t hate Christians, he just hated their religion; would you accept that?
For evidence that Keyes is full of shit, read my post (#60) in this thread.
If you don’t trust my sources, find others about his campaign finance improprieties.
Also, google:
Keyes AND carpetbagger AND “hilary clinton”
for more.
Now, you prove that Keyes is not corrupt and self-serving.
How else do you expect a bunch of gay guys to react to personal insults from public figure? And a politician, to boot? You want a dispassionate opinion about David Duke, you probably shouldn’t talk to a black guy. You want a dispassionate opinion about Alan Keyes, don’t ask a homo.
Yes, I am pretty biased against people who are actively working to make me a second class citizen. I’m kooky that way.
What, precisely, would he have to do to strike you as someone who hates gay people? Kill Richard Simmons?
“Homosexuals are selfish hedonists.” You have yet to explain how this is not a hateful statement.
Oh, and brickbacon, FTR, I’m a heterosexual male, so I’m only taking this personally because I know how Keyes and his ilk think: if they succeed in marginalizing gay people, they will come after everyone who’s not monogamous and married, or celibate.
At which point it would affect me very personally, since I love to fuck women.
brickbacon, the Bible was also cited to prove that women are inherently more inherently sinful and evil than men, that we should always be obedient to our husbands and that we are temptresses who are dangerous to men’s moral character. Don’t believe me? Check out St. Paul and St. Augustine, for openers. Those beliefs are held by some Christians in America to this day. Does that justify sexism? The passages which support that view are a lot less ambiguous than those used to condemn homosexuality.
It seems to me that Jesus reserved his harshest words for hypocrites, especially those who were proud that they were more righteous than others. He also made it quite clear what the most important things were: love God and love your neighbor. Take a look at the Parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37. Samaritans were the lowest of the low in Jewish society, people who had deliberately rejected God and who were not only beneath contempt but enemies of the Jews of the time. In the parable, two men who had reason to believe themselves particularly righteous, a priest and a Levite, left a man beaten and half dead by the side of the road, presumably because they didn’t want to risk becoming unclean. (If I recall, coming in contact with blood would render a person unclean.) A Samaritan, however, the equivalent of pondscum, helped the man, bandaged his wounds, took him to an inn and paid the innkeeper to look after him. How can Alan Keyes possibly reconcile his treatment of his daughter with the teachings of Jesus?
I know, I know. People always can, and I’ve seen it done. The sins of others are always much easier to point out and condemn than one’s own sins and I’m as guilty of that as anyone. Even though I’m straight, I know what it’s like to be told that’s an insult for me to smile at a man or be interested in him. I know what it’s like to reconcile myself to the idea that I may never marry or fall in love because I’m somehow too damaged or too different for it to be acceptable to do so. I also, thanks to a few wonderful gentlemen and a couple of dead good psychotherapists, know how good it feels to realize I was wrong and to simply enjoy the pleasure of hanging out with someone I love. To deny that possibility to another human being because he or she is gay, not straight, is unthinkable to me. It’s cruelty in it’s worst form, and cruelty, to me, is direct disobedience of Christ’s teachings.
Then again, I’m just a liberal Christian. What do I know? :rolleyes:
CJ
I think the phrase strongly dislikes would be more apt. It’s a shame to see the word ‘hate’ bandied about so liberally.
To achieve the goal of legal, same-sex marriage–of which I’m a staunch proponent–I think understanding where the opposition is coming from is important. Screeching ‘they hate us!’ every chance you get isn’t wise, or in many cases, accurate. There’s little doubt in my head there are people who genuinely hate homosexuals; Phelps and his ilk spring immediately to mind.
I realize the preceding paragraph sounds preachy. It’s really not supposed to be. I’m on your side in this battle. I just think the word ‘hate’ gets tossed about too casually, and its usage can be counter-productive.