I completely disagree. Hypocrisy is a bad thing, no doubt. But disowning a child is simply evil. Dick Cheney’s realtionship with his daughter may make him a hypocrite, but it alse means that there’s at least one gay person in the world whom he clearly does not hate. And that’s more than you can say for Alan Keyes.
Alan Keyes is a national joke. That is all I have to say.
I find it very hard to forgive hypocrisy. It shows the person does not have the courage of his convictions.
Which is why I don’t recommend moral absolutes; they’ll bite you in the end.
You know, I read through this entire thread to post something very similar. Alan Keyes is a clown. Does anyone really take him seriously?
Who said Dick Cheney or Alan Keyes hate * ** gay people? They seem to think homosexuality is sinful and immoral, but that doesn’t mean they hate * ** gay people. To me, it seems like they view it as like being a drug addict. Just as many people reject their drug addict kids, Alan Keyes rejected his daughter. That is certainly scummy thing to do, but it doesn’t make mean he hates gays. All that I’ve ever heard him say hasn’t shown that he has a hatred of gays.
I know, I actually wonder if the Republicans ran him in Illinois because they wanted to take the edge off what was going to be a big Obama victory no matter what. Think about the buzz that’ll surround his reelection campaign in five years - people talking about how charismatic he is, what a star in the party he’s become - and how the GOP will need some way to take the wind out of his sails. Around that time, look for right-wing pundits to start saying “Big deal, so he beat Alan Keyes. My Grandma could’ve beaten Alan Keyes!”
And it goes without saying I feel sorry for his daughter. And brickbacon, what you’re saying strikes me as splitting hairs.
Unfortunatly, the person he was able to hurt most in all of this does. Maya. I sometimes hope there is a truth to the whole God thing he believes in, so that in the end there is a hell for him to burn in. To throw out your own child, no matter what the provication, is beyond despicable.
I don’t see the distinction. There is no way to express the idea that homosexuality is sinful and immoral without expressing hatred for homosexuals. And yes, I am familiar with “hate the sin, love the sinner” and other such dodges. I do not find the logic behind them compelling.
Well, what on Earth does it mean, then? Even disregarding what I said in my previous paragraph, how does disowning a child for being gay show anything but contempt and hatred for that child?
Either you haven’t been listening closely enough, or you have an unreasonably high standard for what you consider hateful.
Really? Maya Marcel-Keyes thinks her father loves her:
Oh, come, now! That is just silly talk. You’re telling me that if I find premarital sex sinful and immoral that I hate people who cohabitate outside of marriage? Get the fuck outta here.
Being homosexual and participating in premarital sex are not analogous.
Obviously, I am not familiar with the private details of Keyes’ relationship with his daughter. All I know is that his public actions bear no resemblance to love as I understand the concept. I do not know how much stock to put in Maya Marcel-Keyes’ characterization of her relationship with her parents. Considering her situation, there is some chance that her statement describes what she wants to be true, as opposed to what is actually true. By way of analogy, would you take the word of a battered wife when she says that her husband really loves her?
Seems to me that someone who finds homosexuality so anathema that they’re willing to cut off their own child for being one is operating pretty much out of pure hate. As in, an overpowering and blinding emotion that erases the ability to think rationally about one’s actions and permits one to engage in the most heinous and indefensible behaviors. There’s no other word than hate.
Jesus had lots of things to say about those who disengage from people in need of help and support.
That’s not a fair analogy. You may think premaritial sex is sinful, but any given heterosexual couple has recourse to avoid having their relationship labeled as sinful. They can, for example, be in a romantic, non-sexual relationship until they are married, and consumate their relationship on their wedding night, and thereby escape condemnation. Homosexuals have no such recourse. There is, so far as I am aware, no slack given to gays for having a non-sexual, romantic, homosexual relationship. And, of course, there’s not much point in a gay couple avoiding pre-maritial sex when they are being systematically disenfranchised from ever having the opportunity to practice post-maritial sex.
The position adopted by Keyes and other homophobes leaves them two choices: be condemned as immoral sinners, or give up any chance at a fulfilling romantic relationship for the rest of their lives. This is a grossly unfair double-standard, and is inherently hateful. It is not possible to condemn homosexual actions without being equally condemnatory towards homosexuals as people.
Do you not think there are plenty of people that feel that way? To simplify such a position as a dodge is underestimating the people who hold this view. I’m not saying I agree, but I don’t think everyone who doesn’t think homosexuality is OK is a hateful person.
I think you overestimate the value many people place of family. I’ve seen families destroyed over things that are far more trivial. My friend’s uncle didn’t talk to his father for 15 years because the father “insulted” his wife. Marriages and families break up all the time over things like money and ideological differences. Sure, it is sad, but it doesn’t mean that the familial break is due to hatred. People are stubborn. Especially if one party thinks what the other is doing is wrong, and will ruin their life (condemn them to hell). If a family of a drug addict disowns their child, do they hate him? I don’t think that is the case. I only compare it to drugs because his comments about homosexuality being “hedonistic” reminds me of how many people describe drug use.
Perhaps. I’d be happy to read any cite you would like to provide.
Except that people like Keyes see homosexuality as a choice; like an urge you have to fight. I don’t think it is a choice, but I can’t prove it. I certainly don’t want to debate that issue, but I think you need to realize it is far from settled in the minds of many. That may make them ignorant or close-minded, but it doesn’t necessarily make them hateful.
Explain how the distinction is meaningful in any way. If Alan Keyes were to say that he doesn’t “hate” gay people, but that he thinks they’re all “selfish hedonists” (which he has said), then what does that actually mean? So I’m supposed to think, “Well, it’s okay, because he doesn’t hate me, he just disagrees with my lifestyle choice.” But wait a second – I’m not a selfish hedonist! But I’m still as gay as they come! So what does that leave me with?
How quick would y’all be to defend these people if they’d said, “We don’t hate women, but all women are lying, backstabbing manipulators.” Or “We don’t hate Latinos, but all Latinos are lazy, shiftless gang members.” Or “We don’t hate Arabs, but all Arabs are religious extremists and terrorists.” Since when do we give people a break for perpetuating stereotypes?
People keep insisting that okay, sure, maybe homosexuality is innate, but I’m not homophobic because I’m objecting to homosexual acts, not just being homosexual. And they think that that’s a rational compromise, the battle’s been won, and everything’s fine. Bullshit.
You know what? I no longer give a flying fuck about what anybody thinks of me personally about the homo thing. I tried for a while to meet people halfway, with empathy, treating the matter delicately, understanding their discomfort, and trying to show them that they were working out of fear and prejudice instead of real understanding. And I’ve only been met with more and more hypocrisy. So fuck that. People want to think I’m immoral and a sinner and self-obsessed and base and lustful and vain, fine by me. As long as they stay the fuck out of my personal life. People know fuck all about my “lifestyle,” and I don’t have any obligation to tell them what my “lifestyle” is. It’s none of their damn business.
You can take 2 couples, one of them hetero, one of them homo. The homo couple could have a completely loving but non-sexual committed relationship. The hetero couple could be adulterous, deceitful, and promiscuous, getting married only for the sake of tax benefits and planning to divorce as soon as it suits them. Voters are saying that it’s okay for the hetero couple to get married, but the homo couple is immoral and sinful. But not because they hate homos, of course, but because their lifestyle is sinful.
In other words, being in love and getting married is a sin. Yeah, that’s rational. Nothing about hatred or prejudice in there.
First, I don’t think Alan Keyes has been in your business. No need to be upset about what he has to say. Second, your comparison to “latinos being lazy” is faulty. The main gripe with homosexuality comes form the religion. The Bible is pretty clear about condemning homosexuality. The people who think homoseuxality didn’t pull it from their asses, they took it form a book they base their lives on. A book that many people based their morality, ethics, perpectives, and understanding of the universe on. You may think they are wrong, but the source of their claim isn’t the same as someone who thinks latinos are lazy.
Oh, man is it that time of the month already? I guess I better go mail out the phone bill.
As much as I hate to be defending the Bible, I gonna have to ask why that statement bothers you so much.