An open apology

The BBQ Pit
41

For the LOVE of GOD people, I swear I think I want to start my own pit thread on this, but what’s the point?

The pit thread was doomed once people started throwing around nasty insults and predicting what would happen as well as ‘supporters’ such as Ace throwing in their sychophantic 2 cents. And that was frickin’ page ONE.

Here’s a clue, we all know whatJoe’s and Jersey’s ** positions will be in a topic involving gay/transexual issues. WE ALL KNOW! Did ** Jersey’s post in Great Debates surprise ANYONE? Is the discussion about transgendered persons a legititmate debate? You are aware that in the real world, rather than this very open-minded board, there are people who hold the same opinions as ** Joe and Jersey **…

I suspect that if someone would have brought the issue to ** Jersey’s **attention prior to calling her vile names and making her feel ‘wronged’ the issue could have been discussed in a semi-decent way. You know she isn’t going to back off of what she thinks Eve is, but maybe she might have mentioned she would be more tactful inthe future. WHO KNOWS WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED?!

I believe that a viable discussion could have been had about the issue, but some people doom it to failure with their picks, pokes and cheers. Where do you expect a pit thread to go when the ‘c’ word is used on the first page?

I am not condoning Joe’s comments at all and really I’m not supporting** Jersey’s** either, but WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU EXPECT?

If you truly want change from them, treat them civilly, refrain from using horrid insults and you may be surprised what an interesting discussion you can have rather than get their backs up against a wall inspiring a meltdown with vile insults from them…

There are a few temperate, artriculate responses in that pit thread and it’s a damned shame they got lost with all the name calling from both sides.

42

shaking head

Joe, no one is saying you have to change your stance on transexuals. It would be nice if you stopped being so willfully ignorant about it, but I’m not holding my breath.

It is your and Jersey’s comments that it’s so freaking obvious that Eve “looks like a man” (which isn’t true-look at the People Pages and some of her book jackets. I still find it really hard to believe). And continue to wonder WHY people got upset!

If you’re going to insist on “calling 'em as I see 'em”, well, then you have to be prepared that people are going to be offended. Same with Jersey and His4ever.

However, if you stand by all that you said, well, then that’s not an appology. You’re not sorry about it. You’re only sorry you got the chewing out you deserved.

Even if you thought Eve looked like Arnold bloody Schwartzenegger in a bad wig, (which, btw, she does NOT!), it would have been rude to say so to her face!

And don’t give me that shit that WE’RE the cowards because we say stuff here we wouldn’t dare say to your faces-if that’s the way you guys feel, then why didn’t Jersey just ask Eve at the Dopefest herself? Uh huh. Thought so.

As for your pseudo-appology, it’s up to Eve to accept or not. I can understand some explanation when appologizing-sometimes, people get mad. BUT…that’s not to be an excuse. For example, when manhattan said something really hateful to me, he later appologized and explained why he flew off the handle. However, he said that it was no excuse, just some information. I had no doubt he was sincere.

Your appology, however, reminds me of Wildest Bill-especially the time he made some really nasty remark about how I exchanged sexual favors with a professor who often gave me rides. He said, “Well, gee, yeah, it’s nasty, but y’all provoked me! I’m just a widdle ol’ boy whose tryin’…”

:frowning:

43

Come on Jeanie, do you think that Joe_Cool is being sincere in his apology? With all the self-justification? The apology is obviously for this reason: two administrators posted in the other thread, one to say he was being a jerk, another to say that the next time he was an asshole he would be booted from the board. This thread is just to save his sorry ass.

The reason people are flaming Joe and Jersey is because of their attitude in the GD thread, not (only) because of what they said in the BBQ Pit thread. Sure, when you meet a bigot in real life, you can keep the conversation to a polite level and “agree to disagree”, but that doesn’t make the bigot any less hateful.

44

You know, Joe, in all honesty, I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. Really. It would have been so nice to come in here, read a decent apology, and move on.

But that’s not what happened.

And you know what? It’s not even that what you wrote wouldn’t, under normal circumstances, be almost acceptable (albeit what everyone’s pointing out to you about making excuses and qualifying the apology have merit). Really.

If only this weren’t the umpteenth time we’ve gone through this with you. If this were the first time - yeah, you’d be ok. Second time? Well, ok, maybe. But you’ve put your foot in it so many times around here that there’s no benefit of any doubt left to give you.

It’s sad. I pity you.

My only hope is that you’ll get something out of this, and, going forward, your behavior will change. Note, however, that it would take a very, very long time before people started to be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt again - and the possibility exists you’d never get it at all.

Esprix

45

FYI

Enjoy,
Steven

46

:eek:

You leave my nipples out of this, girly girl!

:wink:

Esprix

47

Ziggy I’m not commenting on Joe’s apology, merely on the pit thread.

48

Say, you think we’re going to get a similar (or perhaps less excuse-riddled) apology from Jerseydiamond? That might be refreshing.

Esprix

49

Damnit, I agree with every word Mockingbird had to say. When you’re right, you’re right.

And, Joe_Cool, if you can’t stop yourself from making baseless, inhuman attacks against class acts like Eve, you need a break from here. Your “Christian learning process” is causing a lot of hurt. (And damnit, how long does it take for you to learn The Golden Rule?)

50

I must be “clever” too. What your apology boiled down to for me was: “I failed to live up to the very high standards we Christians have set for ourselves. I sank to the level of you rabble of unbelievers and I am sorry.”

See? Much more concise, and just about as effective.

51

BottledBlondeJeanie, go back and review the GD thread and decide who got nasty first. I just did. JD’s first question was polite as were the responses. JD’s first reply had some tinge of insensitivity to it (deliberate use of gender terms in reversed form; AFAIK she’s been around these debates before and knows that such usage is offensive, and in any case she failed to apologize when this was pointed out to her) and even then the responses were polite (note especially Polycarp’s well-tempered response). JD’s next response is defensive but not outright insulting. And then J_C pops in and calls me a liar and a deceiver.

It was J_C that started the nasty, personal attacks in the original Great Debates thread. And it is he who ramped up the temperature, too. The onus of misconduct falls on his shoulders. He is not the victim here. Do not seek to excuse his conduct by blaming others for causing it.

The debate over when transsexuals should reveal their status was had back in October/November of last year in two separate threads relating to the death of Gwen Araujo. When I saw JD’s question, and knowing her (and her husband’s) preexisting proclivity to get into nasty flamewars over seemingly anything at all, I fully expected the thread to get nasty. And, in fact, it did.

I find it difficult to accept Joe_Cool’s apology in this situation. His conduct has chased away from the Boards one of its more popular members. Nor is this is not the first time he has behaved in this manner toward other members of the Boards. My patience, at least, is running thin and apologies lacking substance from repeat offenders simply are not convincing.

Joe_Cool, I find that I cannot accept your apology at this time. I gave you a chance to apologize for your initial attack of me when you first made it. You refused that offer, and proceeded to become even more belligerent. To continue to attack someone to whom you have clearly done harm shows that your intent was deliberately evil, and I cannot accept an apology for acts motivated by such an evil mind that is not accompanied by a true show of remorse and some evidence of an attempt to discontinue the wrongful conduct. I will take your apology, such as it is, under advisement until I see such sign from that you truly have remorse for your conduct and that you truly will discontinue it.

Nor do I believe that your apology to the others involved, and especially to Eve, is adequate, but that is an issue between you and them.

52

Well! I had no idea my use of the “c” word would be taken as hard as it was. I’m a woman, so it takes a really high degree of anger for me to use it. Much how the “f” word used to be back in the '60s. You saved it for the really big arguments.

I don’t need to fight Eve’s battles for her. She’s quite capable of defending herself. What I was doing by starting “the thread” is expressing my personal anger toward Jersey and Joe. Not their views (although I couldn’t disagree more) but by their lack of tact, and the mean, hurtful statements that are made so regularly that they have become their trademark.

I certainly had no idea that the power of the “c” word could in any way be equated with the negative power that came from JD’s unbelieveably cruel statement toward Eve.

Had I known the “c” word would cut as deep as Jersey’s statement did, I never would have chose it. For that, I’m sorry. I will refrain from using it in the future, regardless of how angry I am. I’m sorry I hurt you, Jersey.

53

I have tried to stay completely out of this whole mess. Now that it’s (hopefully) on the down-side, I have just this to say:

Joe, this is not about your convictions and beliefs. Cases in point, the many conservative Christians on this board who have the same convictions and beliefs as you, but who are not pitted on a regular basis.

Please continue to ask yourself why it is that you and your wife are in the Pit every few months, whereas other people, just as conservative as you, and just as Christian as you, are never pitted.

If you’re banned, it won’t be because of your convictions and beliefs. Please put this completely out of your mind, because it’s completely false. If you’re banned, it will be because you’re a jerk.

54

Sheez, y’all. Joe’s apology may not live up to your standards, but do you really think you’ll convince Joe et al of the superiority of your position if you keep insulting them like this?

On a different note…

It implies no such thing. Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton, in my opinion, acted in manners unbecoming of leaders of nations. Does that mean that it is okay for every Joe Schmoe to have adulterous relationships and try to sabotage political careers? Does “The color red looks bad on me” translate to “The color red looks good on everyone else?” Of course not. A Christian (or anyone) should not have acted the way Joe did, and Joe admitted as much. He’s apologized, for what its worth. Obviously, he’s made an attempt at reconciliation. Find common ground with each other. Please.

That being said, I think that there is way too much vitriol being spewed by both sides by certain posts. Suffice to say, y’all are acting in ways unbecoming of Dopers. :slight_smile:

55

I’ve spoken to Joe and Jersey elsewhere, and found them to be relatively decent people. When thrown into a mix of people on a dangerous subject however, it is possible for people with a faith based opinion to wind up in trouble.

I will say that I saw hate going back and forth on those threads, and a certain amount of damaging comments. However, lots of people said things they probably shouldn’t have. It wasn’t just Joe and Jersey doing the shouting.

I will say that in my honest opinion Joe, Jersey, and His4Ever need to stay away from discussions where they know they will not be able to control themselves. When you give an opinion that flies in the face of a group discussing something they will not just eat it folks. You might disagree with Judaism, but that doesn’t mean you should kick in the door of a synagogue and piss on the Torah.

Likewise with Gay/Lesbian and Transgender threads. STAY AWAY. There are threads I have to stay out of too. Being a Bush supporter, I don’t touch the Bush hating threads, because I know I’m gonna get pissed.

You can’t walk into a Transgender thread and piss on Eve. You’ve got to be cool, man. There are nicer ways to put things. “I really like you as a person, even if I disagree with your lifestyle” would be a start. “I love you, Eve” would be even better.

You should have been the first one in line to have Eve’s back Joe. As for me, I didn’t even know what was happening until this spilled over into the pit.

I love you and Jersey, but you guys have got to be cool.

56

I don’t think anybody’s said it better than Copaesthetic. Everybody knows that there are certain things that will always get them to act in a way that will probably make others angry. Stay away from those things until you can control yourself.

57

Yeah, what Copaesthetic and Soup said.

Also, good on you Kalhoun re the ‘c’ word, I use it sparingly, but using it helps escalate things and backs people up against the wall…

KellyM I’m really focusing more on the pit thread. I gguess, for me, nothing that was said in the GD thread by them really surprised me so it didn’t offend me…

58

IMO focusing on the pit thread is a mistake because it’s just a continuation of the evil conduct that started in the GD thread. You have to view his conduct in its totality, not just a little slice of it. Not looking at the GD thread makes Joe out a lot better than he deserves.

Just because you expected him to be a jerk in Great Debates doesn’t mean he’s entitled to get away with it.

59

BBJ, Just because what they said is typical, that means we should let it go? I don’t think so…

Esprix

60

I don’t advocate letting it go, rather just dealing with it differently. I expect some people to get angry and offended, but I wish it could be discussed in a manner where the offended people don’t get downright offensive themselves, which is not to say everyone does this.

Then there are folks who just like to push buttons…