Battlestar Galactica 3.20 - "Crossroads (part two)" - spoilers

Cafe Society
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Some sort observations since I am doing this on my phone.

Regarding Starbuck - I too will join in on the “told you so” dance. Having another Viper would be no biggie since the Cylons have loads of them, I am sure.

Nobody has mentioned the power failure yet. It showed up right after they hit the nebula and went away when The Four accepted what they were. Coincidence or The Four overriding an ancient defense?

My guess is that the Cylon fleet isn’t attacking for one of two reasons. One, because Stabuck negotiated some truce with them (also explaining how she got there), or two, the Cylons were shut down by the power failure until The Four sent in the recogniton code.

Finally, the biggie, The Final Four. I think they are Cylons - but they aren’t part of Cylon “society”, they arent’t part of the plan, and, most importantly thr Cylons don’t know who they are. THEREFORE, Tyrol’s kid isn’t a big dea like Hera because the Cylons don’t know that there even IS a second Poptart.

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[QUOTE=Unauthorized Cinnamon]
*And for those who insisted Starbuck was dead, dead, dead, because RDM said she was, because Katee said she wouldn’t be cutting her hair anymore, etc., I have prepared this song: I told you so, I told you so, I-I-I told you so . . . :wink:
[/QUOTE]

Missing the point that people insisting that Starbuck was dead, dead, dead were doing so because they can’t stand Starbuck, not because they couldn’t believe that Moore would pull a fake-out.

Because, really, if you’ve watched this show at all, how could you not anticipate a fake-out?

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Because Apollo was no longer a regular pilot. He resigned his commission, was therefore a civilian, and shouldn’t have been flying at all.
[/QUOTE]

Missing the point of Lee’s speech in court. He was flying because he’s a pilot, and they let him because they don’t have enough pilots as it is. All is forgiven, remember?

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[QUOTE=Lightray]
Missing the point that people insisting that Starbuck was dead, dead, dead were doing so because they can’t stand Starbuck, not because they couldn’t believe that Moore would pull a fake-out.

Because, really, if you’ve watched this show at all, how could you not anticipate a fake-out?
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People hate Starbuck? Maybe on the internet. All the people I know IRL who watch the show love her. We were all sad to think the character wouldn’t be in the next season and were hoping for a fake-out. Was relieved to see her back, even if it’s a cheesy plot twist.

Fine, all is forgiven… but Lee was still off the fleet when he got into the ship. Wasn’t someone saying they didn’t know he was out there? I’d have to rewatch the ending, but I got the impression that he was not reinstated, was just joining in in the heat of the moment. Did he and his father make up? I didn’t think they had, though the Admiral voting to acquit Baltar was a step in that direction.

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[QUOTE=MaxTheVool]

Furthermore, he’s still guilty of treason-leading-to-genocide (which it’s unclear the fleeties could be aware of), sleeping with the enemy (which they certainly should be aware of) and lying to them about building a cylon detector, which led directly to the nuking of lots of innocent people. So Lee’s speech about moral ambiguity in impossible situations was all well and good, except for the part where it doesn’t apply to Baltar in the slightest.

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Is he guilty of treason? Baltar didn’t know Caprica Six was a Cylon spy until she told him just before the initial attack. At that point there wasn’t a lot he could do about it.

He’s the Admirals son and the former CAG and they are desperately short of pilots. Who’s going to stop him?

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[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
People hate Starbuck? Maybe on the internet. All the people I know IRL who watch the show love her. We were all sad to think the character wouldn’t be in the next season and were hoping for a fake-out. Was relieved to see her back, even if it’s a cheesy plot twist.
[/QUOTE]

You do realize that all of us out here “on the internet” are real, right? :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Wasn’t someone saying they didn’t know he was out there? I’d have to rewatch the ending, but I got the impression that he was not reinstated, was just joining in in the heat of the moment.
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It seemed like a pretty unofficial jump back into the viper for Lee. It looked like he went down to the lauch area during the too-much confusion when the power came back on. I’d say no one on the deck would question him if he hopped in his viper and launched when everyone else was doing the same. So…not reinstated, and not properly executed. That being said, I’d guess that XO Helo would be happy to have him out there, just like Admiral Adama was happy to have Tigh in CIC.

So…In “All Along the Watchtower,” the two riders at the end of the song are actually the ones having their conversation in te beginning of the song, right? So there’s a kind of loop to the events outlined in the lyrics…all of this has happened before.

I loved seeing Earth at the end. Very cool, trippy CGI.

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[QUOTE=Rubystreak]

  1. Back on Caprica, he gave crucial information to 6, which enabled the invasion.
  2. He faked the Cylon detector, which would have changed history radically in favor of the humans.
  3. He gave Gina 6 a nuke, which led to not only the destruction of a ship full of humans, but created a signal that enabled the Cylons to find New Caprica.
  4. He convinced humans colonize New Caprica in the first place, with the avid coaching of 6, making them sitting ducks for the invasion.
    Any one of these is treason. All 4? Airlock him.
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Number 4 isn’t treason – he ran for president on a platform of settling on New Caprica. The people voted for him, and thus for his proposal. He was merely following through on a campaign promise (!), doing the will of the people. Bad Idea? Absolutely. But not treason.

We the viewers have plenty of evidence for 1-3, but I don’t think the Colonials do. Not even #2 – he could always claim it was failure and not malice, thereby creating reasonable doubt. Much as I’d love to see his character gone, they just don’t have the evidence to convict him.

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[QUOTE=AndyPolley]
It seemed like a pretty unofficial jump back into the viper for Lee. It looked like he went down to the lauch area during the too-much confusion when the power came back on. I’d say no one on the deck would question him if he hopped in his viper and launched when everyone else was doing the same. So…not reinstated, and not properly executed. That being said, I’d guess that XO Helo would be happy to have him out there, just like Admiral Adama was happy to have Tigh in CIC.
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Actually, I think that XO Helo is out there, too. He leaves the CIC when Gaeta sets condition one on the ship and calls all the pilots to duty. IIRC, we don’t see him on the CIC when Tigh shows up with his new Cylon girlfriend.

Which would, again, play to Lee’s point that they’re not a civilization, but a gang of people who needs every member doing what they can do for the gang.

[QUOTE=Dante]
You do realize that all of us out here “on the internet” are real, right? :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

The deuce you say! I figured we were all moderately-well-behaved spambots, or something! Some of you are people?

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[QUOTE=Dante]
You do realize that all of us out here “on the internet” are real, right? :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]
Cite?

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[QUOTE=AndyPolley]

So…In “All Along the Watchtower,” the two riders at the end of the song are actually the ones having their conversation in the beginning of the song, right?
[/QUOTE]

I never thought so. I believed the Thief and Joker to be imprisoned in the Watchtower and the approaching riders two different characters. Always envisioned them riding through snow for some reason. :slight_smile:

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All Along the Watchtower analogy: Apollo and Starbuck are the “two riders”…??

A theory I have been turning around is that Lee is actually dead…remember when the raptor came close across his bow – “What the FRAK was that!!” Then next thing you know Starbuck is flying across from him in a pristine ship. (Wonder if her uniform was white??) What if that ship or whatever it was actually took him out and he is now wherever Starbuck is? Apollo and Athena…??

I am on the side that these 4 Cylons are not part of THE Final Five Cylons. Maybe they are a part of a “defective line” that the official faction boxed long ago, but they somehow emerged. There is also the line of thinking that EVERYONE is a Cylon, meaning that Cylons became humans…and now is the time when my brain really starts hurting. But it is a “hurts so good” type of pain!

As far as the time frame they arrive on earth…hasn’t the thinking always been they are from ancient earth? The time of the Greek Gods? I have always thought they arrived to help build the pyramids, after all it was aliens who built them anyway, right? :stuck_out_tongue:

So Anders and Tori are co-mingling…what color are spines when BOTH participants are Cylons? :wink: Poor Seelix, when she walked in to see Tori all disheveled she was heartbroken. Is that because Anders was doing her too or because she was hoping at some point to get some? Don’t worry Seelix, Anders has plenty to go around!!!

Now we have a good reason to re-watch this season especially starting with New Caprica so we can watch for the “tells” and side glances of the 4 newly realized Cylons!! Can’t wait!

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[QUOTE=HelloKitty]
Now we have a good reason to re-watch this season especially starting with New Caprica so we can watch for the “tells” and side glances of the 4 newly realized Cylons!! Can’t wait!
[/QUOTE]
That presumes, of course, that this really was planned, and they’d had exactly this development in mind going back a while. I’m not convinced.

And as with so much else about this show, I will wait to be convinced whether this is a good move by what comes after. At the end of last season, we were all hugely thrown by the New Caprica thing. Then we got the opening four episodes of season three, which rank among the show’s very best. So that worked out pretty good.

Judgement, on my part, is being withheld.

But I’m nervous.

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Well, Moore got the 4th season extended from the initial 13 episodes to 22, so that tells me that he let TPTB in on the arc planned. So I have to believe that at least the broad outlines were in place before the season started.

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[QUOTE=HelloKitty]
Now we have a good reason to re-watch this season especially starting with New Caprica so we can watch for the “tells” and side glances of the 4 newly realized Cylons!! Can’t wait!
[/QUOTE]

Even if this was all planned and known to the actors beforehand, why would the characters have given “tells” and side glances? They’re sleeper Cylons – up until now, they’ve had no knowledge or indication that they were Cylons, just as with Boomer back in season 1.

They didn’t know they were Cylons, no one else suspected that they were Cylons, and even the other Cylons don’t know their models. There should be no one for them to have exchanged side glances with.

But I, too, think that Moore’s creative process is “vague big picture, with details filled-in by last-minute cool ideas he likes.”

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[QUOTE=msmith537]
Is he guilty of treason? Baltar didn’t know Caprica Six was a Cylon spy until she told him just before the initial attack. At that point there wasn’t a lot he could do about it.
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Except that when you expose critical parts of the planetary defense system to someone or sex, it doesn’t really matter whether or not you KNOW she’s a spy. I suppose you could argue that it’s closer to “catastrophic security breach” than “treason”, but I’m quite certain that if people knew the truth, they would not be very forgiving.

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[QUOTE=Lightray]
Even if this was all planned and known to the actors beforehand, why would the characters have given “tells” and side glances? They’re sleeper Cylons – up until now, they’ve had no knowledge or indication that they were Cylons, just as with Boomer back in season 1.

They didn’t know they were Cylons, no one else suspected that they were Cylons, and even the other Cylons don’t know their models. There should be no one for them to have exchanged side glances with.

But I, too, think that Moore’s creative process is “vague big picture, with details filled-in by last-minute cool ideas he likes.”
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Ok, I see what you mean, but I do think when I re-watch this season it will be with a new perspective knowing what we presume to know now, ya know? :wink:

The part I was thinking of was when the Chief was in the temple he found on that planet (did he hear music that drew him to the location? I can’t remember…), and he was talking about when he was a kid and how he rejected the Lords of Kobol stuff but he was starting to feel different about it…?? Stuff like that will have a new meaning.

Cervaise, I think if we watch the season again we’ll see some of the seeds being planted…maybe even going back to the first season! But that’s probably stretching it. I agree that the seeds have been sown quite loosely.

The one I have the hardest time accepting as a Cylon is the Chief, after all he is the “working man” of the ship; the one us regular people are supposed to identify with. That’s my view of him, at least. We don’t know enough about Tori to really be shocked she is one, Anders, I can buy it…Tighe, it’s a tough sell but not out of the question.

Will be mulling this around for several months!!

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[QUOTE=MaxTheVool]
Except that when you expose critical parts of the planetary defense system to someone or sex, it doesn’t really matter whether or not you KNOW she’s a spy. I suppose you could argue that it’s closer to “catastrophic security breach” than “treason”, but I’m quite certain that if people knew the truth, they would not be very forgiving.
[/QUOTE]

Except, IIRC, six was ‘working’ with or for him in some capacity… wasnt like he just let whomever in… he had reason to do so, and she was definitley the ‘only’ reason he was as smart as he was… due to her work… but he didn’t knowingly let ‘just anyone’ in…

Six in his head is just another element of his psychy playing out… as far as we can tell, it hasn’t been a conduit between him and the cylons.

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[QUOTE=simster]
Except, IIRC, six was ‘working’ with or for him in some capacity… wasnt like he just let whomever in… he had reason to do so, and she was definitley the ‘only’ reason he was as smart as he was… due to her work… but he didn’t knowingly let ‘just anyone’ in…
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Caprica’s cover story was that she was working for a defense contractor, and had bribed Baltar (with sex, possibly also with money) to allow her contractor access to the new programming, ostensibly so they’d have an advantage on the contracts from it. She therefore had access to the program, and access to secure defense computers (apparently), and she inserted the Cylon backdoor/virus/logic-bomb/whatever into both. But the program was written by Baltar, it was Baltar’s work, and Baltar got the job because he was that smart before Caprica showed up to shag him.

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[QUOTE=simster]
Except, IIRC, six was ‘working’ with or for him in some capacity… wasnt like he just let whomever in… he had reason to do so, and she was definitley the ‘only’ reason he was as smart as he was… due to her work… but he didn’t knowingly let ‘just anyone’ in…
[/QUOTE]

She had no security clearance, and he knew it full well. It doesn’t matter that she was helping him write the code, that’s a major criminal offense and he knew it perfectly well. He’s just the sort of person who believes the rules don’t apply to them.

The problem is that there is no evidence that he did so. Roslin remembered seeing Baltar with Six, but she was in a near-death state and had no observation of any security clearances being abused. No one has any evidence of the latter, and so he could not be convicted on that count. The only potential hard evidence for his crime in allowing Six access to the defense mainframe was destroyed on the Olympic Carrier.

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[QUOTE=mrklutz]
<snip> Much as I’d love to see his character gone, they just don’t have the evidence to convict him.
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I love the Baltar character - he’s so joyfully messed-up, usually. Another of his beautiful little throw-away lines - “The whole fleet knows he tried to stab me through the neck. And you missed - butter fingers!” Who else would say things like that? (And my husband’s favourite line - “No more Mr. Nice Gaius.” :smiley: )

I was wondering about Baltar’s evilness, thinking he was mostly just supremely self-serving, but my husband reminded me that Baltar has gone out of his way in the past to harm the human race. Yeah, he’s evil, and putting him out the airlock would probably be the salvation of what’s left of the human race, but he’s just so darned entertaining!