Carnivale: Day of the Dead (SPOILERS)

This was quite an episode… lots happened, IMO.

–Ben’s dream of Justin handing out razor blades as Communion wafers was chilling. Is this the first dream where he actually comes into conflict with Justin? Justin said, “This is the body of Christ” and Ben said, “No, it isn’t.” So what is it?

–So Ben considers pre-marital sex a sin, huh?

–I feel completely vindicated in sensing a lesbian vibe between Sophie and Libby. Apparenly Apollonia sensed it too, and sent Sophie a strangely compelling vision… the only bad part of it was the bleeding hand, an image I can’t quite figure out. In any case, I think Sophie would be better off with Libby than Jonesy, at this point.

–There was a kid running around the Dia de los Muertos celebration with a tree drawn on his chest. Coincidence?

–Ben goes to confession and admits to killing a man, so we now know why he was on a chain gang. Scudder was in the confessional telling him his mother wanted to die, and then disappears. Hmmm, who else do we know who can become discorporate at will?

–Norman Balthus thinks Justin needs an exorcist, but I personally think it’s Iris who has the devil in her.

–Things in the Rita Sue–Jonesy–Stumpy–Sophie–Catalina love pentangle are getting messy. Sophie asks Rita Sue for advice, Jonesy dumps Rita Sue, who of course says mean things to him, Stumpy has his Latin girl on the side, but the cards say Jonesy isn’t gone for good, Sophie wants to make things work but has a thing for Libby too… where is this all going? The previews show Stumpy with a gun… it don’t look good.

–I did feel badly for Sophie when she found out about Rita Sue/Jonesy from her mother of all people. Poor kid. She was definitely giving her mother the third degree about her father, asking if it was really a rape, with Apollonia seeming reticent on the point…

–Samson tells Ben that Lodz was involved with whatever “bad thing” happened in the Old Country between Scudder and Management. Involving a bear, perhaps?

–Tommy Dolan better watch his ass. He doesn’t know what he’s dealing with, but make a deal he will, according to the previews for next week. I wonder if Iris is going to be what he asks for…

–…speaking of which–Iris burned the church! She killed the kids! She and Justin soul kissed! WTF?!?

–So the culebra bit Ruthie and she was dying, but it seems like Ben couldn’t save her. Why?

Overall, this ep was the fastest-paced one in a long time. I think we can safely say that Justin is on the side of Darkness and Ben is on the side of light. Still no idea how Lodz fits in with Scudder v. Management, who the guy with the tree tattoo is, how Ben and Justin are going to meet, and what the point of the Love Pentangle is. Looking forward to next week’s finale…

I think Sofie keeps insisting that Appy is sending the visions, but I don’t think Appy has anything to do with the visions. I think they are 100% Sofie…I don’t know why they are suddenly manifesting now, but I don’t think Appy is responsible.

Did you notice that the kid with the tree was being chased by a mob of men with knives, etc, and then when we see him again, they have him in a litter, lifted over their shoulders, and cheering loudly?

Maybe because Scudder already saved her once, and you only get to be “touched” once? Maybe because they slept together? Maybe because he had her laying on the dirt road instead of the middle of a field or lake, surrounded by life?

I couldn’t tell if he wanted to fuck her or kill her there before the fade out. Maybe both? Maybe at the same time? shudder

I wonder if Scudder was really there, or if Ben was having a dream, or waking vision, like in the Babylon mines. Or like Justin’s waking vision in Milfay outside of the Chins.

pepperlandgirl, interesting point about the lesbian vision. Maybe Sophie has been blaming her more disturbing visions on Apollonia when they’re really coming from her? Not sure about that either way, because wouldn’t Apollonia deny it when confronted? So far, she hasn’t. But this thing with Libby has always met disapproval from Apollonia, so it would be in character for her to send the vision. What do you make of the bloody hand?

Now that you mention it, I do recall that Ruthie was saved once by Scudder, so maybe you’re right and that healing power only works once. Wouldn’t Lodz know that? If so, why did he want Ruthie killed? If not, whoops.

The tree tattoo man image keeps cropping up–first in that mural at the Templars’ place in Loving, NM, and now on that kid. I’m getting a sort of Golden Bough/Fisher King feeling from it; as you pointed out, the kid was chased as if he was going to be killed, only to be exalted. The wounded healer who dies to insure the harvest, know what I’m talking about? The image of a man running through fertile fields reinforces my vague feeling on this, but of course I can’t really figure anything really concrete.

Does HBO ever cancel series before a complete run is through? Or are we definitely going to see the entirety of this story? Because I’d be really put out if this show ended before the mysteries are explained.

Oh. My. God! I’ve been experiencing problems with my connection, so haven’t been able to post until now. Still trying to figure out what all happened tonight too!

I had sort of wondered if Iris had been responsible for the fire–seems like -she- should have been the one in the asylum, not Justin, because that woman is SICK! They should just lock her up and forget about ever letting her out! And EWWW, the incest thing–good grief! I had to close my eyes, it made me shudder … and -not- in a good way. :wink: (that’s a -nervous- wink, btw.)

Damn that Lodz! He and Lila have been grating at me the past few weeks, but this time he has gone too far. Whatever kind of snake that was, they deliberately put it in the bag of clothing so that Ruthie could get bitten. I hope hope hope that Ben will be able to save her, but it does -not- look like the healing powers will work this time. :frowning:

Count me in on those who think that Sofie is having visions on her own now–they’re not coming from Apollonia. What a strange vision with Libby though! Yes, I’d been getting the saphho vibe from the pair, yet what was that with the piercings in the hands?! And more blood! Don’t get me started on the razor blade communion wafers!

Could Samson be any more clueless?! WAH!!! I like my Samson, but he can’t even buy a single clue it seems.

I do think that Apollonia told Sofie about Jonesy and Rita Sue. I think Stumpy knows too, in his heart of hearts. No good will come of that situation, I fear.

This is really building to a huge conclusion next Sunday night, and I for one cannot wait!!! I hope hope hope that HBO has enough sense to renew this series for a second season (and to leave K Street behind …)

I can think of two reasons to kill Ruthie.

  1. Ruthie could be seen as Ben’s protector. It’s obvious she doesn’t like or trust Lodz, and if Ben is with her, she’ll be a shield between the two of them.
  2. Showing Ben how powerful he is when everything works sure hasn’t swayed the kid to join forces with Lodz, so now he demoralizes Ben by killing his lover/mother-figure with the hopes that Ben will turn to him in frustration and anger. You know “Why didn’t it work?! Show me what to do!”

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He was raised in the midwest during the 20’s, not surprising.

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You and everybody else. I was just hoping they could show a close relationship that didn’t end up being sexual in nature.

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No more coincidence then the mural on the wall of th Templar lodge, temple, or whatever it was called.

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We found that out in the Lobster Girl episode but I would like to know who he killed and why. Maybe next episode?

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And soon Iris might have Justin in her. Ewwwwwwwwww! Any way I think she’s a driving force but Justin isn’t exactly a nice fella.

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They do seem to have a rather odd relationship for a brother and sister. Justin did stare at her while she was in the bathroom in an earlier episode as well.

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A lack of life in a semi-desert? I think someone else might bite the big one in the last episode of the season to save Ruthie.

I think Lodz tried to control Scudder and now he’s attempting to do the same to Bed. As to how he’s connected to management, well, how are any of them connected to management? Who is management?

Marc

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She’s in the way of him getting to Ben.

Marc

That doesn’t seem to be stopping anyone else in the Carnivale, though, does it?

Again with this issue? How many female friendships wind up being lesbian in nature? Damn few. In fact, most of the relationships depicted on TV are heterosexual, so I do not understand this sentiment that Sophie having a crush on Libby is somehow annoying because it’s cliche or something. Quite the contrary, IMO, and it’s pretty brave to show such a thing. HBO is good that way, though, I have to say.

The culebra was a win/win for Lodz, I think. In the past, Lodz has said that if Ben doesn’t use his power, he’ll never be able to master it. As he seeks to control Ben, it makes sense that forcing him into using the power and thereby forcing him to confront the unknown will drive Ben to begin asking questions (which, apparently, only Lodz can answer).

If Ben doesn’t or can’t heal Ruthie, well, then, there’s one less enemy of Lodz between he and Ben.

The kid with the tree reminded me of the King of the Bean story-someone gets picked at random to be the king for a year on Midwinter’s Night, then as the year draws to a close, the king is killed (either symbolically or physically) to insure spring returns.

I had trouble understanding the accent of the woman in the village. I think she said, “They weep for your loss.” Anyone else catch this? If that’s what she said, I’m wondering if the children could sense Ben’s gift had gone into remission.

And I haven’t looked lately, but is there any mention on the website about when the next season starts?

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Carni folk are weird though. I suspect Ben had a pretty religious upbringing from his mother.

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How many friendships between anyone is depicted as being so intimate? Damn few. I just wish we could see deep meaningful relationships between two individuals on televsion that didn’t have any sexual undertones.

It might have been brave 4 years ago but not today.

Marc

TV has gotten braver about showing gay men, but I still think lesbianism remains somewhat closeted. We had Willow on Buffy the Vampire Slayer (RIP), Ellen had her short run, and IIRC there was a lesbian character on Roseanne years ago, but how often do you see actual lesbian love and sex depicted on TV? If I’m wrong about this, please set me straight (no pun intended), but we don’t see Dike Eye for the Straight Gal, do we? No Will & Grace with the genders reversed? Why is that? To answer that question would be to hijack this thread, but my point is that the Sapphic Libby and Sophie plot is not walking over well-trodden ground by any means.

We see plenty of friendships on TV that don’t turn sexual, esp. same sex friendships. The writers of Carnivale clearly wanted to indicate that Sophie and Libby have more than just friendly feelings for each other, and that to me is a rather intriguing turn of events. Now, the Stumpy/Rita Sue/Jonesy/Sophie thing is far, far less interesting to me because it IS cliche. Libby and Sophie, OTOH, not so much.

Just a few points, as I can remember them:

There’s definitely been a sexual undercurrent between Iris and Justin. Her reaction for example, to Tommy
Dolan’s “pass,” was as if he was coming on to a married woman. The kiss between Justin and Iris after he found out that she set the fire, was completely unsurprising, though I too thought that sex would follow–and I second the “Ewwww!”
Also, Iris being the more evil of the two, goes back at least several episodes. She’s a lot more in the driver’s seat than we’ve been led to believe; perhaps Justin is simply a conduit for her evil intent?

Okay, Mea culpa! I was wrong about Libby & Sophie–but they haven’t actually had sex yet have, they? :wink: I’m in agreement with pepperlandgirl that Libby seems like a better match for Sophie right now.

Returning to the conduit vein, I also have felt that Apollonia’s real strength came from Sophie, who has yet to come as far as Ben has with her gift, though the idea of the powers being totally Sophie’s (unconnected to Appy) is plausible as well.

In re: Ben and his disgust with himself/ Ruthie for having sex, I think this goes back to a line he uttered earlier in the series about being forced to read the bible “every day.” Even though he professed to have had enough of religion, I’m afraid it’s pretty well seared into him.

I’m still not getting the tree of life/death or whatever symbolism.

Finally I agree too, that Ruthie is not staying dead.

Should be big fun finding out what’s next!

So next Sunday is the season finale!

Did I read (here on the SDMB?) that this is supposed to be a three season series?

I think Lodz has to be hot on Ben’s tail, ready to exploit Ruthie’s dire circumstances. I don’t think he necessarily is trying to kill her, but rather, is setting up Ben to use his powers. Ooh, wouldn’t it be evil if he had Lila drive him out there with the intention of using her as the sacrifice?

I agree that Sophie is having her own visions now. I still suspect it is due to her being pregnant.

I get the impression that the tree-tattooed kid was part of a symbolic ritual, whereas the machete-wielding guys chasing tree-tattooed man were going to do it for real. I still can’t figure out quite what Scudder’s role in that chase was - who was chasing whom?

My take on Justin and Iris: Justin didn’t really remember his childhood before coming to live with the minister. He was raised to be good and moral. However, he always had sinister urges, not the least of which was lusting after his sister. The conflict led him to literally flagellate himself.

But now that he’s remembered his past and accepted his gifts, he’s not conflicted, but ready to use the trappings of religion to accomplish his purpose. From his conversations at the asylum, it seems he may still believe he is an instrument of God, but more like the flaming-sword-obliterate-entire-cities-including-innocents type, rather than the gentle shepherd. If God made him to do evil, then doing evil is actually good. So why not give your sister a good rogering while you’re at it? Am I the only one who thought it was ambiguously implied that they might have continued their activities off-screen?

The bloody hands suggest the stigmata. Not the image I want in the middle of a nice lesbian fantasy.

Was Ben a virgin before falling into Ruthie’s experienced hands? Could having sex have cost him his gift?

Heh, you said “rogering”.

Did Scudder have the gift too? The implication is yes, and he apparently had plenty of sex.

Does anyone know the source of the twice-repeated line, “Every prophet in his/her house?” We’ve heard that said to Justin and Ben in a dream (seemingly directed at Justin, who asked for tea), and Sophie now, right? I Google’d this phrase and only came up with references to Carnivale, which makes me think it’s a made-up phrase, but it does link Sophie more closely with the weirdness between Ben and Justin. Clearly her father chased Ben’s through some fields, but what does that mean? Any ideas?

I think it’s a paraphrase or allusion to

But of course, I could be totally off base.

It’s a little ironic that you bring up those shows when they are nothing more than playing off the “hipness” of homosexuality without actually going very deeply into the issue while the relationship between Libby and Sophie seems to be a much more realistic progression of two close friends of the same gender inching towards a possible romantic/sexual relationship. To be honest I’m not sure where my initial response to the relationship came from, it really isn’t like this sort of close same-sex relationship, depicted with seriousness and dignity, is well worn ground. The only other show I can think of that featured any same sex relationship that didn’t feel like it was trading on the novelty of it was on Buffy. (And oh yeah, Six Feet Under, can’t believe I almost forgot about that. David and Keith are a great couple.) Depsite some initial eye-rolling as time wore on, I really warmed up to the Willow/Tara relationship because it was so well depicted. Then after Tara’s death they hooked Willow up with boring-ass Kennedy and the eye-rolling began again.

Okay, so what would that mean? That these ‘prophets’ would never be recognized in their own home, but perhaps elsewhere? The line obviously means -something-. Just not sure what.

Oh, and my two cents- I remember reading somewhere some theory about the power of darkness giving birth to the power of light, and vice-versa, in each generation. Possible that Ben impregnated Ruthie, and Lodz is making sure the ‘next generation’ isn’t born? And perhaps Iris knows about this, too, and is ensuring the ‘next generation’ the (ew) only way she knows how?