CARNIVALE starts tonight!

I would agree with this theory, definitely. One question I have about Management is that he refers to himself as Lucious Something-or-other (the Russian Soldier), and, although I only saw it once, on Sunday, didn’t Justin refer to the Tatooed Man as “Lucious” in his vision (standing by the tree, right before Tat Man slices his hand)???

So Tat man = Management/Russian Soldier = Justin’s Father ?

??? = Scudder = Ben’s Father ?

But difficult to tell if management is good/evil. Same with Scudder. And Sophie. And Appollina. And… hell, this show is awesome. At least Sampson is probably a good guy. As well as Jonesy.

I wonder what kind of role Dolan will play? Will Justin ensure the silence of his step-father.

(Again, speculation, not spoiler)

[spoiler]And didn’t tattooed man rape Appolonia? It seemed we are meant to believe he’s Sophie’s father.

So Sophie and Justin = siblings? Eeeew. He has enough issues with the sister he knows about!

Actually, I’ve been wondering if **Scudder **isn’t the tattooed man. Is there any reason he couldn’t be? The tattooed man was in the painting at Scudder’s old Masonic lodge, remember? And a tattooed man would make sense in a carnival of that period, and would explain why Scudder was part of the carnival.

So maybe Sophie and Ben = siblings? That could be why the expected romance hasn’t happened.[/spoiler]

Man! I love this show! :smiley:

More speculation:

[spoiler]I’m not buying The Russian/Management == The Tatooed Man. Of course, I might be proven wrong later, but so far nobody has changed appearances much. The Tatooed Man doesn’t look much like Scudder to me. Also, we saw a picture of Scudder from the time he was with the show. He was wearing a tux and it was labeled “The Gentleman Geek.” I’m not exactly sure what his job would have been, but it doesn’t sound like being the tatooed man for the show would fit.

Sofie being the daughter of the Tatooed Man is something I was overlooking though. It seems like we might have three chains, not two.

Scudder -> Ben
The Russian -> Justin
The Tatooed Man -> Sofie

Interesting… very interesting… [/spoiler]

Ah, yes. I had forgotten the Gentleman Geek advert.

Well, a geek is one who bites the heads off live chickens in a carnival. I suppose a gentleman geek is one who bites the heads off live gentlemen. (NO! I’m sure it just referred to the tuxedo costume.)

I think your three threads theory is prob’ly right.

Maybe that’s why I have such trouble predicting this show - I just can’t remember everything there is to remember!

The Gentleman Geek schtick was significant (according to the DVD commentary) because carnivals usually hired homeless drunks and such to perform in each town (who else would be desperate enough to bite the heads off living animals?). So to have a Gentleman Geek was upending the whole stereotype.

As for the identity of the Tattooed Man:

Maybe we haven’t seen Scudder and the Tattooed Man in the exact same camera shot, but in Ben’s dreams, it certainly appears that one of them is chasing the other through a cornfield, and then they come face to face, so that would indicate they’re not the same person (though you can’t be sure of anything with this show!).

I’m trying to parse Samson’s opening monologue. It makes it sound like perhaps Scudder is evil, and the Russian/Management is good (“diminished by his wounds, he turned to the next in the line of Light” or something like that), but there are some pronoun/antecedent ambiguities that could yield the reverse interpretation.

Yes, Appolina getting raped certainly leads me to believe that Sophie is the son of the tatooed man (especially since she discussed it with Sampson).

Am I wrong in that the scene w/ Justin and Tat-man, they seemed to know each other some how? When entering the radio station and told about killing Henry Scudder with his bare hands, however, Justin didn’t seem to recognize the name.

The tatooed man in the painting is really freaky (and there was that one episode where Ben runs smack dab into a child with the tree drawn/tatooed on his body, only to see the boy being carried through town like a king later on).

Perhaps Ben already knows who this is, but I was hoping he would ask the man on the floor who he was, rather than who the artist of the painting was. I’m not sure if I missed something, but didn’t he respond by saying Kerrigan (?) , the artist, go mad and is locked up now somewhere? This isn’t the man in jail who could hear Justin over the radio is it?

Earlier in Ben’s conversation, the Templar told him that Scudder had only had dealings with one person at that temple, Kerrigan, and that he went mad. I seem to remember that Kerrigan was a priest of some type and he is now looked after by the church. This is definitely a different person than the man in jail (Varlyn Stroud).

SQUEEEE!

I held off reading this thread a WHOLE WEEK cos I wanted no spoilers, now I watched eps one and two and…

SQUEEE!!

(Runs around giggling like a little girl then sits back down again)

MUST. HAVE. MORE. EPISODES!
Hey, just out of curiosity, anyone else notice that Brother Justin’s direct reading from that new book of his sounds awwwwwwwfully familiar? :slight_smile:

How about when Sophie is walking on the road, and you see TWO shadows? Her, and one behind that looks like it’s wearing a veil? Then the camera moves around to the front and you only see Sophie.

Methinks Mom is still around…

Oh yes. That was a beautiful piece of film there. Gave me shivers. And yeah, anyone who thinks that just cos mom’s -body- is gone that mom’s gone…

Oh, and Kerrigan… Somehow… I think Ben healed him. At least a little. Not in the mystical way, but more in the, “Thank the lord, someone who understands is finally here… I can rest.” Kinda way. I felt so… Bad… For Kerrigan. In some ways I hope he comes back, but in other ways, I hope all that happens with him is that he finally gets to rest.

I was on the HBO site yesterday, and it appears there was an error on their site. One of the bio’s that has never been available is Henry Scudders. However, for a time yesterday, the actual BIO for Scudder was listed (by mistake) under the link for Dora Mae. Dora Mae’s picture was there, but below is what was printed on the bio.

Now, it doesn’t give up to much, but I think it does shed some light on who is who, depending on how you interpret it. And, yes, I’m new, so will spend some time figuring out how to properly post the black spoiler box:
Henry “Hack” Scudder - Born in 1893 in Texas, the only son of Hilton Scudder, a notorious Grand Dragon in the Texas Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, allegedly raised by his mother, Magnolia, after his father’s death in 1889. Early in childhood, the boy’s powers began to manifest themselves. Besides incipient psycho-kinesis, Scudder could read minds and divine the past and future from touching objects.

At 20, Scudder joined the 1st Canadian Depot Battalion in 1914, stationed in Lemberg as an observer with the Austro-Hungarian army. An assassination attempt by a Russian officer was thwarted by a runaway circus-bear, Bruno, whose master, Professor Ernst Lodz, soon became aware of the American’s uncanny powers. The two traveled together, performing for (and fleecing) the wealthy in European salons from Belgrade to Paris.

Aware that the Russian was still pursuing him, Scudder fled to the United States. There he met Flora Hawkins, who became his common-law wife. The two had a son, Ben Hawkins. Once again sensing the Russian in pursuit, Scudder left his wife and infant son, taking a job as “The Gentleman Geek” with the Hyde & Teller Company until it was purchased by Management.

By now a heavy drinker, Scudder wandered the Southwest as an itinerant laborer-including a stint at the ill-fated Babylon Mine-before disappearing in Mexico.

My mistake… the link is still active. I just don’t think there is anywhere actually linking this on the site…

http://www.hbo.com/carnivale/cast/character/scudder.shtml

A lot of interresting bio information about a lot of folks there. Hrmmmm

Well, now we know who the tattooed man is, but why did they previously show him as a young man with long dark hair to Ben (rabbit roundup)?

Anybody think that Appolonia possessed Sophie to get her away from the Carnivale in an attempt to prevent Sophie’s rape by the tattooed man? Since she’s been living through Sophie for so many years, maybe just mixed up the message?

Re: Henry Scudder’s birth

Typo? “Born in 1893…after his father’s death in 1889”

We do? I think I missed something. Would you mind clarifying?

Read the entire sentence. The part that you are leaving out with your “…” is drastically changing the meaning.

This is the part that stretches things for me:

A runaway circus bear is shaping the world’s future? Ugh! So much for all of us trying to get some symbolism out of it. I’m kind of glad this looks like an errant link. I’m hoping this part never becomes canon.

It reads to me like they’re saying that Hack Scudder was raised by his mother after Hack’s father died. In 1889. Four years before Hack was born. I’m not sure how you’re thinking it can be read so that the dates make sense.

Anyways…

I’ve also avoided returning to this thread until I had a chance to see the first two episodes, which I did yesterday. I’m less than whlemed so far. The show somehow seems less atmospheric and more “odd for the sake of odd” than in S1. I did like how they humanized the Bearded Lady a bit. She was such a one-dimensional bitch last season. Also glad to see it looks like Sophie’s little manipulations of Lily and Jonesy is apparently going to have consequences for her. I will miss Gecko too, as well as the Siamese twins singing in French. I’m also wondering what happened to the senorita Stumpy picked up to be the third cooch dancer.

:smack:

My bad. It looks like it was my reading skills that weren’t up to the task. 1889 not 1899… sigh!

I really liked the first episode of season 2, but the second one seemed to drop off a little to me. I wonder if anyone has heard why they didn’t bring back Gecko or the twins. Lila is more human this season, but I’m still having a hard time feeling much sympathy for her.

Oh good, I am not crazy after all. Thanks, Otto. My math skills have never been my strong suite, and I was afraid I had blundered.

Okay, someone remind me who Lyle Donovan was.

Was reading the episode summary on the HBO site, and it mentions Stroud finding the postcard from Scudder from Babylon. “He has also acquired a gun and a badge, murdering Lyle Donovan in the process.”

Was Donovan that Sheriff that was looking for Ben? I think I’m getting confused with the sheriff from last season when they were doing the faith healing scam(same actor that played the Secret Service guy on West Wing, when I watched that).