Yes. Not thinking about them though…I’m mostly thinking nothing…I’m merely there. The rest of what you posted matches fairly well with what I feel.
The conversations I enjoy are purely theoretical ones, where fact can not play a part, or purely factual ones, where there is no subject to become engrossed in…someone is right, someone else is wrong.
I have a fairly thick skin with regards to my behavior. I am interested in improving it; any reasoned attempted at pointing out what I do wrong is appreciated.
I see your point. I meant for it to come across as “Unfortunately you haven’t understood me, that is a problem, but your misunderstanding forced me to think a little deeper about the issue, and in so doing I realized that the issue wasn’t what I thought at first.”
I hate being thanked for doing something. (maybe I wasn’t clear enough…I hate it) That leads me to be a little reluctant to say thanks to other people. You are correct though, I should have said thank you.
That is how I solve problems, if I’ve solved a part, then I see no reason to reconsider that part.
I guess the problem here lies with me. I do not see saying “yes, that’s what I said” as any different from “yes, that’s right”. To me, they mean the same thing.
This, combined with your first example, helped me figure out which social skills I’m missing. I do think about how what I say will be interpreted, but I can only base my thoughts on how I would interpret what I said. Clearly, I do not interpret things even close to the same way as other people, and so I have nothing reliable to base considerations on.
I think you need to find a therapist to talk to. Get over your issue with referrals or use the phone book, but find someone. You’re doing a lot of analysis but I don’t think you’re reading yourself correctly.
For example: You say you’re not afraid of people or of confrontation, but you also say you lack assertiveness and that you’ve experienced so much rejection you’ve stopped trying to make friends. In addition, you say anger “goes into a box”, but you also enjoy disappointing animals and people. I would guess, if not ‘anger’ at least your sense of being powerless is going somewhere.
That sounds a little harsh, and I really don’t mean it to be. I’m not trying to tear you apart. I just think that there’s a lot of contradictory and confusing stuff in your posts and maybe you need some help finding out what your real personality issues are and where they’re coming from.
I think there are many reasons why people like to be a shadow. One of the most major ones is simply insecurity. If you do more than watch, you actually do something, and people may watch you. Even worse, if you do something, you may do something wrong. Which is especially terrible if you are being watched while doing so and are already insecure.
I’m not saying that is necessarily your reason. But it is by far the most common one. One of my oldest friends was like this. He never actively took part in anything, never initiated conversation and when someone talked to him you’d have to be pretty skilled to get anything out of him. He preferred just to read books, and he read most of our local library at an early age.
Our school careers separated and we got a bit out of touch, until one day I got a letter from him. Having known him since he was about 10, at the age of 21 he had joined a rowing club while studying and a girl there hooked up with him. This drew him out, and he’s never been the same since. Now he loves to go out and has lots of friends, and starts talking spontaneously.
I’ve seen a lot of people like him really. It’s very common, among girls too by the way.
What to do about it? Well, besides just getting lucky and ending up in a relationship because someone who is very active and outgoing happens to take an interest in you, you can make a very smooth transition out of the shadows by slowly becoming a more active watcher.
I was trying to be way too subtle there…the issue with referrals is that I don’t have anyone to ask for them(in other words, it is impossible to overcome). The reason I posted that was to see if, perhaps, someone had any other ideas. The other one, about money, is a non-issue. That was me rationalizing an irrational fear, and I never should have posted it. In the past(oh, three or four years ago) I had vehemently rejected an offer of therapy…it would be hard, but not impossible, for me to go back on that.
In short, I’m sorry about posting that, I never should have. I was just creating excuses as to why it wouldn’t work for me. Unfortunatly, I still have the problem with trust/paranoia.
Your opinion is noted. I almost agree with you myself. I can figure out that I like to be a “shadow” but I have no idea why. I know that I hate being thanked, but I don’t know why. I can never seem to answer the ‘why’ question. Perhaps that is an example of me reading myself incorrectly, had I a correct reading, I would be able to answer ‘why’.
And now I’m going to attempt to clarify a few of the points you picked up on as being confused.
I know what fear is, and I know that I don’t have it with respect to people or confrontation. I’m not really sure I understand where people get the idea that I have some sort of social anxiety. I dislike striking up a random conversation with someone who has nothing in common with me, but that is because I do not share much in common to talk about. If I am, say, working on a project(or taking a class) then I am not adverse to starting a conversation since there is an easy topic to start a conversation on.
When I’m angry I shut down. If I’m really really angry, then the shutdown is extreme; I stop thinking, I stop listening, I stop moving…I just turn off. Additionally, the reason I said box was that, initially, it was my method of coping (I would put my age at 10 or 11). Then I changed(13? 14?); thoughts which evoke anger, sadness, or pain were then ruthlessly destroyed and forgotten. Is this healthy? I would assume not, but…
It didn’t really sound harsh to me, but thanks for the consideration. You’re right; there is a lot of contradictory and confusing stuff in my posts. Partly it’s because I have only recently allowed myself to reflect on it.
I do not mean to sound patronizing; I sincerely appreciate everyone who took the time to respond to my posts. In truth, I was not expecting anyone to respond. The community here has shown me that sometimes people can and do care, at least a little, about others even if I find that unbelievable.
Staggerlee and alice_in_wonderland: I appreciate your input, but I think that my issue goes a little bit deeper than that. I may very well have too much time on my hands but I think having less time would only postpone dealing with the real problem(s).
wasson: If only it were that easy for me Thanks for trying to help.
Hello Again: your questions helped me realize that I don’t know why I feel the way I do…they brought the issue up, but I was not yet ready to acknowledge it. Thank you.
Zoe: I feel bad that I did not have a good answer to all of your questions. I have a feeling that I am not at a point where I can honestly answer your question. I appreciate you sharing your view about ‘little lies’. Thanks.
cowgirl: Thank you for your input.
msmith537: I am sorry if I what I said made it seem like I was ignoring your feelings. That was not my intention. I appreciate the time you took corresponding with me about my issues.
Maastricht: Your posts in both this thread and the other have helped me quite a bit; thank you. I also appreciate you taking the time to dig up old threads for me.
enitocinnlonahte: Initially I was a bit annoyed with your posts, since they were full of one-liners without supporting examples/evidence. I see now that you were thinking about what I posted. I’m sorry for the tone of my responses to you, and I thank you for continuing to respond despite that.
Wesley Clark: I agree with a few of your points, though I’m not sure if visualization would work for me. Thanks for the suggestion.
MaddyStrut: Your post gave me something to consider, and helped me realize that I might not be quite as correct as I thought. Thank you.
Just to point something out: social interaction is about competition. Everyone is trying to maintain an image and altruism is a part of that image. The reason people do care and the reason people pretend to care is because altruism creates an aura of trust, thus bringing you allies that can help you climb the ladder of social heirarchy. In turn, you help them. The more a person truly cares* the more effective their altruistic behaviour. That is the case because folks are very good at spotting pretension. You have to put yourself up for judgement, or people will have no way to know your intentions.
You are quite right. I do not think that is the whole reason, but it does have a certain ‘ring’ to it. One thing that doesn’t fit, though, is that one of the stories I was told(a few years ago) about my childhood was that when I went to daycare (1 or 2?) I was there for about three months before the person running it knew I could talk.
I love the getting lucky method…means I don’t have to do anything! =)
Actually though, while I appreciate your efforts, I don’t think I’m quite there yet…I’m still trying to decide if I should change the ‘shadow’ persona, or if I should try harder to make it work.
Just for future reference in case my deicision runs that way, could you elaborate on ‘active watcher’ a bit? My understanding would be to, sometimes, make a suggestion, or give an opinion…and then slowly give more. (leaving out any difficulties with having opinions/suggestions)
I know you hate being thanked, and you have suggested that you don’t care much if others show you appreciation. But I see you really making an effort to research this personal, possibly painful issue, you are very honest, and that you seem really willing to learn from others people’ s suggestions. Those traits are not that common, and they are valuable. You’ll get there. (Where-ever it is you want to end up ).
One last piece of advice: do sign up here. Take another username if you must. I’ve learnt a great deal from interacting with people here, and they are a varied, lively, intelligent, eloquent, helpful and thoughtful bunch. To make this community work, we need all flavours of people, and yours certainly is a valuable addition. As long as you stay respectful, don’t worry if your posts elicit strong (emotional) comments from other posters; that is a good thing, it is what people come here for.
Excuse me from saying this, but you remind me a bit of “Data” the android from Star Trek Next Generation. That is a compliment, by the way; he is the favourite character of many people here, and many people here feel they resemble him a bit, too. .
Enrolling here will also help you with what I think Arwin (my fiance ) means: becoming an active watcher. Interaction teaches you so much more about yourself and about how others react to you, then just watching.
You could also use the time here to find out if you like interacting socially at all.
Don’t let such stories define you though, they are just pretty stories mostly. But then again, this friend of mine was just like that.
I like that method too. Although I’ve progressed to more actively inviting luck in, so to speak …
Well the shadow character has a certain coolness factor that you could use, but it does require some well planned acts of courage to get the right benefit out of it, and once you are able to reap those benefits, lack of knowing where to go next stand a good chance of ruining the spoils.
No, that’s not quite it. Imagine that you are studying a small piece of rock lying in the sand. You can walk around it inconspicuously for a long time studying its every detail, nook and cravice, bits of moss and the way the changing light plays tricks on it. But the rock has a side you’ll never see this way. If you move in and pick it up, you’ll be able to weigh it in your hand, look at its hidden (probably moist) face, feel that it’s cool, see some insects scurrying about where the rock lay, see the outline of the rock where it was previously lying in the sand, and so on.
Similarly, in social circles, you can start with studying the people around you, noticing and remembering things they say about themselves, the way they behave around other people, their facial expressions, what other people say about them and so on. Once you think you’ve got a reasonable set of data, make an inventory of what you do know and what you don’t know. Pick one of the people that interest you, and start looking for some small details that could help you get a clearer picture of this person. Are they also shadows, like you? Or are they more extravert, social animals? Empty blabbermouths, or do they actually have something interesting to say? Unusual hobbies? Etc.
Once you’ve focussed on one or two people you find interesting, try to find out some of the details more actively, for instance by just plainly asking them about it. Say that you found out that they haven’t lived in your area all the time, but only moved there a few years ago. If you think you’ve figured out where they come from, then ask them about that. “You’re from …, right?” If you haven’t, ask if you understood rightly that they moved here not too long ago, and where they lived before. If you get an answer that you don’t know how to respond to, just say something like “just wondering … thanks”, and move on. (Almost everyone is flattered by even a slight bit of interest, so you can’t really lose here.) What may happen is that someone asks you the same question back, out of politeness, or out of interest, and even try to hold a conversation. If you are getting uncomfortable, again just say something like “Ok, thanks for answering, but I have to move on. Maybe talk to you later?”
What is really important is that you keep your focus on figuring out the people that interest you, and make a genuine effort to ‘turn every stone’. Your priority is not making contact, but getting the clearest picture you can of your ‘subject’. It is no problem whatsoever if you see some form of interaction as a necessary evil to obtain that goal, as long as you keep focussing on the necessary part more than the evil part.
If it turns out that the person you’re studying is someone you like, then you’ve been making good progress into making contact with that person as well. If not, no problem either. Plenty of other people to study - and people are often a fun and versatile subject.
It may be a compliment, but it’s not the way a person should be. Data is constantly trying to fine tune his “mask” of humanity. He is annoying because he is constantly badgering his companions about the minutia of being human. People treat him with indifference to the mild annoyance and impatiance one might show a child.
Be more like Spock. He doesn’t talk much either but he’s so much cooler. He’s not trying to be anything else. He’s just half human/half Vulcan spock. His friendships seem that much more genuine because of it.
Although I’ve progressed to more actively inviting luck in, so to speak …