Wow, you can do #12? I sure wish I could. It recently cost me a 14-year friendship. If I could learn to do that, then I’d be near gosh-darn perfect! NOT!!
Usually people go with their feelings on a particular issue. Also, sometimes it’s just not worth it spending 15 minutes to come up with “Jerk Store”.
You probably want to figure out why you enjoy something. My thought is that people who enjoy inflicting suffering on others are often transposing anger. Basically just like Adam Sandler in Anger Management. That anger has to go somewhere and since you can’t inflict it on whoever or whatever is causing it, you inflict it on things that can’t respond.
Figure out what you are so angry about.
I find it interesting that sexual jokes are off limit and that sex “isn’t really worth wasting [your] time on”. Why do you think that is? Posibilities that come to mind are that you are feeling frustration over an inability to connect with the opposite sex or even that you might be questioning your sexuality. Humans do need to waste a certain amount of time on sex and if they don’t IMHO, that energy manifests itself in bizarre ways (like obsession with the minutia of Star Trek or keeping fingernails in a bag in your closet).
Ignore labels unless you are delusional. Paranoia driven by cynicism is not delusional.
Initiating casual conversation will quicken your wit.
Eloquence is a matter of practice.
A dog has no comprehension of the fact that it is being taunted. It is willing to great lenghts for a treat and it is blithely indifferent of our conception of shame.
Associating what you enjoy with something negative achieves nothing. The negative reaction just reinforces the pattern of behaviour that you are trying eliminate or correct.
That is a losing strategy. You will inevitably express feeling in one way or another. People will see the constrast and alter their judgement of you accordingly. Your method is only effective in the short-term.
All of us express what we really feel.
Your “issues” are created by the desire to fit in and be accepted. First you reject yourself, then you want the self that you have rejected to be validated by other minds. Forget about fitting in and acceptance. Civilization has made that instinct almost impossible to truly satisfy.
To be fair, I only said narcissistic didn’t apply 
I never doubt my own ability. I have absolute (read: too much) confidence in my ability to do something.
I would appreciate it.
Of course, I’d have to find one willing to sign a legally binding agreement that they would be willing to…hmm…pay their salary to me for the rest of their life if they ever (for any reason) testified about me, involuntarily committed me, or forced me to take any sort of medication. But it’s workable, no?
Actually though, at the moment I do not have enough (spendable) money, however the information would be useful.
Not everyone can be perfect
Problem is, at the moment I’m asked about an issue I either don’t have a reaction to it, or I need to wait for my reaction to go away so I can think rationally. Then I have to construct an appropriate response.
Anger…goes into a box, never to be opened.
Sexual jokes are off limits because they are insulting and degrading.
Sex isn’t worth wasting my time on because I have stopped caring about it. Since I no longer care about it, thinking about it would be a waste of time. Maybe I stopped caring because of an inability to connect with the opposite sex, though I doubt that…the majority of my friends during high school and middle school were female.
Whose fingernails are we talking about here…?
I never said I could not be eloquent. I said it takes time I am perfectly able to construct a ‘good’ response to a situation, if I’m given enough time.
But a dog can feel loss, however briefly, yes? It is that moment of loss, when they think the treat isn’t for them, that I enjoy.
How would a negative reaction reinforce a behavior that is being corrected? As far as I know, negative reinforcement helps to correct a behavior. Positive is, of course, better. And better yet is both positive and negative. But failing the positive one…
I will only express those feelings if I fail at hiding them. The view you presented seems to presuppose failure, and I will not accept a view which assumes failure before testing. If I do fail, then I need only figure out why I failed, in order to fix it.
I disagree. I do not express some things I feel because I know they would lead to quite a bit of trouble later on.
I pretty much stated that at the start. The reason I’m posting is because I have a desire to be more acceptable to people than I currently am. I have attempted the “who gives a shit about Society’s opinion” philosophy and it did not work. The reality is, I do care about Society’s opinion.
Nilor, I’m not even getting into the rest of this thread, but you mention that you don’t have enough disposable income to seek counseling. Now, I was under the impression (from this thread or some other? Don’t remember) that you are a uni student. If this is wrong, please disregard, but just keep in mind that most colleges and universities have some type of free-to-cheap counseling services you can look into if you choose to do so.
As Shodan would say, regards!
LL
I don’t believe I mentioned.
It isn’t disposable income that’s the problem…it’s spendable disposable income. I’m just going to leave it at that.
Still, it is a matter of practice. It is an ability like any other.
That’s not very nice of you, but it is not a serious character flaw. People do that to each other all the time.
I don’t think the dog feels loss in the way that you mean.
Positivity and negativity do not need to be involved at all.
Good luck on that.
That is a form of expression.
Society doesn’t really have an opinion.
enitocinnlonahte:
Perhaps I misunderstood your initial post. I read that as saying “you will express what you really feel, no matter what”, not “you will express some feeling, no matter what”. Nevertheless, I would argue that is a form of communication, not expression. However, that discussion does not belong in this thread.
I did not, initially, think it a serious character flaw. However, from the other responses in this thread, it seems that it is serious enough to be worth changing or disguising.
So how would you propose changing it?
One can get better at a skill without getting faster at it. For example, I’ve written thousands of pages of text over the course of my life, but it still takes me an hour to write a half page of text.
Or, if you think that the skill here is “speaking eloquently quickly”, or some such thing, how would you suggest I develop it?
As I’ve stated before, I need time to analyze a situation and my reaction before I can come up with a good response. During the situation I’m feeling nothing, or too much to think clearly. I’m not going to say anything when I’m not thinking clearly, as the risk that I say something I’ll regret is too high, thus I am forced to wait. When I’m not feeling much of anything I have nothing to base my response on.
Whether or not society exists, or if societal norms represent society’s opinion, strays too far from the topic of this thread. I will respond if the question is asked in another thread, however.
They are hypocrites. The concept of ownership depends on the feeling you described.
Negative reinforcement can suppress behaviour, but that does not eliminate it as an aspect of your personality. No proposal, just that opinion. You would have to come up with a method that does not involve negativity.
So write faster. It’s as simple as that.
You have to accept the risk if you want to develope that skill.
We disagree. Society has many different and contradictory norms. “Society’s opinion” is necessarily your opinion. If you don’t want to discuss that, fine.
Visualization has always worked reasonably well for me for changing traits I don’t like.
You should also try to imagine seeing yourself through other people’s eyes. What do they think. Imagine someone else’s goals and ambitions that have nothing to do with you at all. You sound like you don’t have alot of empathy or like you don’t feel important.
As far as being happy the only thing that helped me with that was orthomolecular treatments like vitamins and amino acids.
I certainly think it’s something worth considering. For the purpose of this discussion, “society” is really just making connections and getting along with other people.
Do you have many close friends? What kind of people are they? Are they “joiners” who are involved in things like sports or clubs or are they mostly “outsiders”.
Sometimes when people don’t fit in, they build walls around themselves (and maybe a few like-minded individuals) that furthur serve to isolate them. Eventually, they only have themselves or each other’s strange behavior as validation.
The more you socialize with people, the more you build positive reinforcement for the traits that you should emphasize. Isolation just breeds indulgance into one’s own little fantasy world.
Also, I wouldn’t discount the narcissism thing so quickly. I don’t mean you spend hours perfecting your hair or anything like that. I’m talking about having an overinflated sense of self. You make a lot of statements about things being “beneath you” and “not worth your time”. This can lead to a lot of frustration if people don’t see you as you see yourself.
Originally, I was using it to mean something along the lines of what traits/behaviors/etc people living in an area share or expect to find. For example, in American society, it is expected to find people who are assertive. If you aren’t, then you are at a serious disadvantage. In Japanese society, that is not the case.
However, I confused things a bit when I used it with a capital S. In that response I meant it to be what you said; making connections and getting along with people. I suppose the goal of starting this thread was to become better at making connections etc, since I am not happy with the number or quality of the ones I have. I was figuring that if I modified a few traits to be less foreign to American society, then I would have an easier time making those connections.
I do not have many close friends. At the moment, I have one, but I haven’t seen them since a few months ago, and I don’t talk with them more than once or twice a week. As for what kind of a person they are…if you asked them, an outsider, if you asked me, a joiner.
I would not feel comfortable dropping by their place uninvited and I do not know much personal information about them. The opposite is also true; they do not know much personal information about me. I’m not sure if anyone else would consider them a close friend or just a friend. (this is the person I mentioned in the other thread…they sent out invitations to their wedding but didn’t invite me).
I have another, but the situation is complicated; I’m not sure if they’re a friend or something else.
Or you try socializing and get rejected too often and then stop trying. I’m happy enough to just be a shadow, always following someone, but never saying or doing anything. Unfortunately, other people are not happy with that behavior, so something has to change.
The only thing I think I said was not worth my time was thinking about finding a relationship/sex. My justification for it being not worth my time is that I have given up hope. I don’t care anymore.
Since it probably got lost in my response to other posts, I am interested in this information if you’re still willing to look it up.
From my previous link on SPD
Here’s an example of social skills training for tech students. But I stand by my recommendation for Judith Martin. Here are a few of her columns for the Washington Post , so you can see if you like her style.
It seems I have realized what information I’m lacking.
I am not lacking in social skills, I don’t have any problem working in groups, I don’t have problems with public speaking, and I don’t have problems in one-on-one situations. I may be a bit slow, but that’s nothing that isn’t fixed by a bit of honesty…I’m too emotional/not thinking quite clearly/whatever to respond rationally(coherently, clearly, etc) right now, could we please talk about this later? (and, of course, bringing it up later) That does present a slight problem with strangers, since I’m probably never going to see them again, but that also means I can afford to avoid the issue.
I do, however, have problems when I do what I want to do in a social situation: watch. Most of the time I’m not interested in participating in any given social situation. As I mentioned before, if I go out with a group(or single person), I am content to just be a shadow, to watch. This, I think, does not go over too well with other people.
I know, now, why this is causing me problems. Most people don’t understand (or accept?) that I don’t want to have any interaction but yet I want to be around. This causes me to be rather alone most of the time, which leads me to feel lonely, which…well, you can see where that’s heading. While I’m content to be a shadow, I am not content with having no friends, yet I do not see a way to make friends and still remain a shadow.
I am also lacking the answers to these questions: Why am I content to be a shadow? Should I change it? If so, how(what) should I change?
And, unfortunatly, I have a slight problem with asking for referrals…The last time I went to a medical doctor was at least 10 years ago. (aside from the booster shots etc I needed to get). I really don’t have a medical doctor I could ask about it, and I don’t have friends I could ask either. I think I may be forced to try the ‘open the phonebook’ technique if I decide to follow through. (which I’m not convinced I could, as I do not like therapists and I would be unable to, for a while, ‘open up’)
People generally don’t like “shadows” because they don’t bring anything to the table. They just glom onto someone who they want to be emulate like that crazy bitch from Single White Female. It’s creepy having someone around who is not actively participating.
I don’t see how you think you don’t have poor social skills. Social skills also includes being able to actively engage the group you are in (even if sometimes you don’t want to). If you don’t want to participate, why are you with them?
The way you stop being a shadow is by finding activities you like doing.
I realize that (and why) people do not usually like or tolerate shadows. I thought I made that clear, but perhaps I did not.
The reason I say I do not have poor social skills is that I can deal with other people. I’m not afraid of them, I know how to act around them. I also know how not to act. My problem, as I’ve come to realize, is that “how not to act” shares much with how I want to act. As I said before, I am content to be a shadow. I’m with the group going out because that’s what I want to do. I want to go out with them and then observe; follow them around. However, I am not content with the rejection that being a shadow entails…and thus I have a major problem.
Unless every single activity I enjoy doing is solitary. I enjoy playing computer games, alone. I enjoy watching people, alone. I enjoy (in some twisted sense of the word) school work, alone. Why do I enjoy those activities? Because the activity is all that I am thinking about. All of my thoughts go towards the activity at hand; I am unable to think about anything else.
Nilor, If I understand you correctly, you want to be with people, observign them and thinking about them, but not interact with them more intensily. You ideal interaction resembles you sitting in a theatre, or at a table outside a cafe, and looking, at people, maybe a nod here and there from a friendly face, now and then doing something interesting on your laptop. Right?
But you notice that people don’t like and/or accept this, and reject you, and you don’t like rejection and the loneliness that ensues.
One point I wonder about though; do you have, at times, pleasant *factual * conversations? When you and somebody else are both engrossed in the subject a hand and exchange factual views about it? You could elaborate on that. Work on a task with somebody else who also likes concentrating on it as much as you do.
So now what?
I still do think social skills can help, to an extent, with your problem.
It is possible to be an “accepted shadow”. I’m a very active person myself and I have had friends, where we both were content with them just tagging along, following my lead, and be spoken to more often then they would speak themselves. They weren’t my best friends, but yeah, we had a good time.
Actually, I sometimes wonder how many marriages are based on this division of tasks. 
It does take an entire set of social subskills on the part of the “shadow”, though. Subskills that are different from the ones listed for the tech-students, which were mainly about asserting themselves, careerwise & dating girls. The social skills you need are more in the line of being pleasant to be around with, being a good listener, maybe show appreciation for others. If you had those skills, if you could “pay” in social currency, I think most groups and individuals would welcome you as their “shadow”.
At the moment, based on what I’ve seen in this thread, you don’t posess those skills yet. Below I will give you a few examples. I don’t mean to be harsh to you, by pointing out what social skills I think you have yet to aquire. But I want to show you how social skills work and the only examples I have as “teaching material” is how you act in this thread.
As I said in the other thread, I have been a lot like you, and I remember that it is unpleasant to have pointed out that you are, despite your intelligence and good intentions, not so good at this social skills thing.
My reaction, at the time, would have probably been "but why do they all make things so difficult, and so indirect and so hypocritical? Sorry, but I feel my way is better, actually. Let´s all communicate my way. "
Take your interaction with msmith537, for instance. msmith537 said something that was, from your point of view, redundant, maybe partly wrong, and you corrected him/her, because, I think, you were more interested in getting your problem across and your questions answered, then you were about msmith537’s feelings. I know you didn’t mean it that way, but to me, it looked like you snubbed him/her. You seemd to say to him/her “Unfortunately, you haven’t understood me, and that is a problem, but I don’t need you anyway, because I have solved the problem already myself, and besides, I’m dealing wiht another part of the problem now”
Another example.
You haven’t thanked anyone yet for their contributions. Implicitly, you have, because you have thought about, parts of, what they said, and you have responded to it; but that is not the same as showing appreciation.
I suspect that a few people in this thread have stopped responding to you, simply because you haven’t made it worth their while. Certainly, you have listened. But you have not, for instance, told them how and when they were correct. Everybody likes to hear: “hey, you were right” or “hey, that was really helpful”.
I suspect you don’t do that because you prefer occupying you mind with the parts that aren’t solved yet. And that is how you solve a problem, yes, but all people celebrating the solved pieces, too.
Another example. People repeat stuff all the time, because formulating it them selves is how they think. If you respond to such a thought with yes, that´s rightor even uh huh you show that you have understood them, in a short, effective way that makes them feel good and encourages them to talk on. If you react by saying with a bit of irritation yes, that´s what I saidyou don´t get the real point. And you hurt the feeling of the one you talk to, who will soon stop talking to you.
All this are examples of the finer social skills that I think you could benefit from learning. Maybe you could use the open phonebook method and ask for a threapist who is good at this. Or maybe he-she has yet other advice to give to you.
FWIW, I myself am a psychologist, but I´ve never worked as one.