wisdom, too.
I am most definitely an atheist, but I am hardly Christ-like. If I had to imitate a founder of a religion, it would be the Buddha, for Buddhism, unlike Christianity, emphasizes compassion over judgement.
It seems to me that if Joe_Cool argues doctrinal issues in a spirit of spite and and self-justification, then, IMO, he really does not understand the mission of Jesus or the duties of a Christian. In fact, the only people Jesus denounced in the Gospels are exactly the religious authorities who placed greater emphasis on the letter of the law and doctrinal wrangling than on love, charity, and forgiveness. To paraphrase St. Paul, if you don’t have love in your heart for your fellow humans, then your faith is just meaningless noise, or to quote the gospel of Les Miz, “To love another person is to see the face of God.”
If Joe and Monty were here, I’d give them both a big hug, ask them to take a time-out, and see if they could not work out their differences peacefully over a pitcher of Diet Coke and a Papa John’s Supreme pizza (my treat).
The Revelation of Papa John?
I would disagree with your last clause, based on my own reading of Jesus’s words – but I suppose in doing so I’d be doing something like proving your point! :eek:
If you look for the few occasions where Joe-and-Jersey and I have been able to discuss calmly our stances rather than getting het up about our differences in emphasis, you’ll see him (or her; their views are similar enough that I don’t try to keep straight which said what) affirming the primacy of love. However, he is staunch for the necessity of the keeping of the “moral commandments” in Scripture, and, very much like me, tends to get polemic about his views and how they are misrepresented. I think I can guarantee that it’s never in a attitude of spite, and self-justifying only to the extent that it’s a commitment for him (as for me) to stand for what he believes in. Over the last month, I’ve come to know the two of them and what they’re like down inside much better, and can see that their sometimes combative attitudes on what Christianity is supposed to be are not reflective of mean spirits but upright, caring ones that get combative for the truth. Certainly you, gobear, can get irate at someone subtly using innuendo to defame all gay people; Joe seemingly feels much the same way about the tendency to do likewise regarding Bible-focused Christians, and reacts accordingly.
A consummation devoutly to be wished! I’d love to see you, me, Monty, Tris, Pun, Joe, and Jersey at the same table in deep conversation about what matters deeply to ourselves.
BTW, if I may noodge a little, gobear, you mentioned some time ago having had a spiritual experience that strongly influenced your views, and if you ever went into detail about it, I’ve missed that. If the latter, would you be so kind as to link, and if not, would you consider discussing it in a GD thread? I know I’m trespassing on private, personal feelings in asking this, but I feel like it’s the right thing to ask, and I hope you’ll forgive any invasion of your privacy in making the request, even if you decline. 
Regardless of what Monty wants to believe, gobear, I’m not asking spitefully. I want to know how they reconcile that seeming problem. Since he refuses to explain it, then oh well.
You are telling someone they are refusing to explain or respond to a question.
You are a very funny little man.
:dubious:
Gobear wrote:
A remarkable statement given your considerable knowledge of Jesus’ ministry.
“Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son… You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one… This is my command: love one another.” — Jesus
Lib/, I suspect strongly that gobear is speaking of institutional Christianity as he’s experienced it (or perhaps that might be better expressed as “as he’s suffered it”) rather than the teachings of its Founder. It would be totally uncouth for me to quote “religion politicians” back at you – but keep them in mind when you read gobear on “Christianity” – he is, I believe, most emphatically not talking about your or my belief system when he condemns “Christianity” but the SBC, Cardinal Ratziger, Jerry Falwell, Forkus in da Fambly, and a few other choice specimens of Homo demagogus.
Indeed. The idea that God incarnated as a human in order to redeem His errant creation is beautiful. The idea of people living lives of love, hope, forgiveness and charity is also beautiful. But, as I survey organized Christianity, I don’t see that. Instead, I see that for many Christians, harassing gay people, reading badly written books about a crudely drawn eschatology, and adherence to a primitive creation myth as being the hallmarks of “true” Christianity.
In my experience, the His4Evers far, far outnumber the Polycarps.
gobear: I have to share a bit of a secret with you (and, I guess, everyone else since this is on the board) – I’m kind of drawn to Mahayana Buddhism myself.
Is it reconcilable with your belief system, Monty?
And Gobear, I meant you talk the words of Jesus (re: Love) rahter than judgmentalism.
In ohter words, you are a peacemaker and blessed are the peacemakers.
The more rationally-open formulations of Mahayana Buddhism are compatible with a rather wide range of belief systems, theistic to non- to a-. It’s one of the factors that lead quite a few to argue that it’s not a religion but a philosophy.
I don’t think it’s even remotely ironic that an avowed atheist can be a better witness of love than many avowed religionists of whatever religion. What religion a person is, is almost entirely a matter of what words they narrate it as. Words can be fine and beautiful things, they’re one of the many gifts of being human, but words are not the Word, and loyalty to any particular set of the former is a separate thing from loyalty and striving towards to the latter.
I agree with you about Gobear, Vanilla. I love him dearly.
OK, just to make gobear turn a little bit redder, I agree that he out-Christians some real life Christians I’ve known. Then again, my experience with Christianity leads me to focus on love over judgement in part because so many people only see Christians as judgemental. It’s a perception we come by honestly, I’m afraid.
I’m not familiar with Mahayana Buddhism, but I studied some Zen Buddhism while I was majoring in Japanese, and I still use Zen meditation techniques as a form of deep prayer by clearing my mind of all external distractions and focussing solely on communion with God. I’d also argue that one of the basic principles of Zen Buddhism – not tying oneself to the pleasures and concerns of this world – is entirely compatible with Christianity.
Joe_Cool, please, believe me when I tell you I’m not piling on. I do, however, need to tell you that I’ve felt attacked by you at times to the point where I’ve wondered about leaving Christianity since I suspect by your standards I’m a lousy Christian anyway. I’m sure you are a nice person, but I get nervous posting in a thread you’re participating in for fear that you will tear me apart and yes, swear at me. I’m sorry. I cannot bring myself to agree with you on all things simply because you’re sure you’re right and can cite scripture. I’m also quite sure I’m right and, while Episcopalians are notoriously bad at this, 
I’ve learned to cite a few verses myself since I started hanging around here. If I exchange the beliefs I have formed through prayer, study, and life in general for your beliefs simply because you say I must because you’re right and I’m wrong, to me that’s exactly the same thing as automatically deferring to Papal authority. I have tried to understand your point of view, even to the point of talking to a friend who once was a Fundamentalist Christian, but, as I’ve said, I’m afraid to talk to you. Please, I’m not attacking you. I just wonder if you understand that sometimes I feel like you’re attacking me.
Respectfully, believe it or not,
CJ
CJ, if you feel that threatened by joe_cool, I really suggest you use some of your personal options that are given to you from the board. Trust me, they are wonderful!
Remember, you do not have to correspond with him. Also, you have asked him questions and he gave you his answers. I see nothing wrong with that. I think you just need to keep in mind that you may not get the answer you like, all the time.
Anyway, I have never seen joe_cool swear at you, so I am not quite sure what you are talking about.
I am also interested in seeing some of the things that he has said to you that you have felt threatened by. I did a search, and I don’t see anything attacking you. I just want to see what made you think about leaving Christianity. Not a big deal, but if you have the time or whatever.
A true follower cannot be plucked from the hands of God, not even by the big bad joe_cool.