Of course!
Let me take you through our training program.
So it’s okay if it’s drawn out more?
[Repo Man]
“John Wayne was a fay-ug.”
[/Repo Man]
:rolleyes:
Those reading this thread who still don’t get the “faggot” pun Malacandra refers to should really read the thread jjimm links to above. All will be made clear.
Also, aren’t fags cigarettes? And “fagged” can mean “tired?”
You are correct. But imagine the reaction of the American businessman phoning a UK client, only to be told by the client’s secretary that he’s not available as “he’s outside sucking a fag”. Rumored to be a true story.
In UK colloquialism, Guin, “fags” are indeed cigarettes, but “faggots” are meatballs made with, in Pratchett’s useful phrase, “suspicious-looking organs.”
There was, I recall, a fairly large portion of the population in the 1950s and early 1960s who felt that black people were making too big an issue out of the remaining disadvantages that they felt were oppressing them, and that they ought to just shut up and be thankful they lived in a free country. I presume that the overwhelming majority of this board disagrees strongly with that attitude.
The outspoken gay people on this board, and those of us who stand by them, see the problems they encounter in almost precisely the same perspective as those encountered by blacks back then (and to a small extent, still today). And whatever you may think of Esprix or gobear objecting to hurtful language, there’s a point behind it that really needs to be made.
The old solution always works – if you don’t want to read it, don’t open the thread.
To a certain extent, Polycarp, I agree with you. And yet just because a person is a member of an oppressed group (for lack of a better term), that doesn’t give them free reign to engage in the same type of behavior that they decry.
Prejudice is prejudice, regardless of who espouses it. There isn’t a “right” way to show it.
Yeah, Polycarp, that is why I tend to be of two minds about these things. The white, straight, middle-class male in me thinks everything is rosy for everybody because it’s rosy for me. On the other hand, the fat guy who is expected by society to take the jokes with jolly good humor can understand Esprix’s reaction to similar jokes at his or his friends’ expense.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned niggardly yet.
Anything from Repo Man is, by definition, the apotheosis of cool.
Gotta disagree with you, jar:
She called the castration comment a partial over-reaction, but ultimatly agreed with both the sentiment of the OP and his right to rant about it.
Can you show where Esprix did that? There’s a whole world of difference between stereotyping someone and being angry at someone for playing into a stereotype.
Good that you apologised for the usage of the word ‘faggot’, Malacandra, but don’t try to pretend that because you’re British, you didn’t know how offensive it would be. Anyone who grew up watching American movies and TV shows, like most of us in the UK did, knows eactly how bad ‘faggot’ is.
Btw, when I read ‘Could You Please Stop Making Straight Men Look Like Ignorant Fucks’ I parsed it as ‘these people are making straight men look as if they’re all ignorant fucks, which they are not; please stop.’ It doesn’t say ‘all straight men are ignorant fucks.’ How come everyone else seems to be reading it the second way?
Finally - I used to have a good blow of a fag almost every weekend, and I’m a lesbian!
(and in that context, it’s not offensive).
SciFiSam, in minor defense of malacandra - I’m a Brit, and I knew the word was vaguely offensive in the US, but I had no idea how offensive it was until I read gobear’s post (similar to the whole “cunt” debacle). Prior to that, I thought the triple meaning - meatball + tindersticks - was a mildly amusing double-entendre.
It was a compliment based on my perception that you don’t indulge in inflammatory behaviour just to create a scene and entertainment as I feel Gary’s post was attempting to incite.
SciFiSam, maybe I just don’t read enough American books, or watch enough American TV or movies, that major on homophobic violence. If it’s OK with you, I’ll keep it that way.
I did think, as I wandered off to lunch, if I’d have used the word “nigger” even in a really good pun, and whether “faggot” was on a par with “nigger” and so on. Let’s just leave it I’ve learned my lesson, m’kay?
A lesbian who blows fags? Did you see “Tipping The Velvet” when it was on?
I really hate the word “homophobic”, but now’s not the time for the argument.
Just to weigh in, I’ve even heard gay colleagues and associates in the UK and Australia several times describe one another in a joking sense as “faggot”, even once or twice a straight friend has called them it in a mock fight. This is obviously between very good, trusted friends. In the same way, female and male friends and I frequently call one another “slut” in a very joking way, and even “slag.” Eg: “You’re such a slut!” or “You total slut!!” But it’s always humorous, and always in good faith.
While I can appreciate how much more offensive it obviously would be outside this very limited and exceptional situation, I do still get the impression that the word has a much greater offensiveness in the US than it does in some other countries.
First of all, I was not offended by the other thread. In fact I thought it was a very interesting subject. But even when interpreted that way, which is also how I read it, it is still not nice. Why would seeing one straight man act stupidly make you believe all straight men are stupid? Basically it means this:
“Please Stop Making Straight Men Look Like Ignorant Fucks, Because All Straight Men Will Be Stereotyped Based On Your Stupidity.”
Why else would one straight man make all straight men look ignorant, if not because they will be stereotyped?
It is like a white man making a thread called “Jayson Blair, stop making blacks look like lying opportunist %#(#*!.”
Even though there is some truth to the idea that some people will wrongly stereotype black people based on Blair, and some people will wrongly stereotype straight males based on the stupid ones, it should be made clear that such stereotyping is wrong, and should not be accepted.
Oops! I hadn’t read the links Esprix had in the other thread. While that thread seemed like a reasonable response to straight males seriously propositioning lesbians to allow them to join in or watch, the actual links revealed that those being pitted did nothing of the kind. Not even anything even approaching the kind. Esprix’s response was way overboard. Perhaps it would have been better to have a more general thread on the subject, rather than attacking specific people who didn’t deserve it.
Well, let me ask you this: Was it necessary to tar all straight men with the “ignorant fuck” label? Do we know for a fact that all (or even a majority) of straight men engage in the behavior described in the OP of the other thread?
Of course not. That is casting a negative light on a entire group of people based on the actions of one, or a few. That’s stereotyping.
Later in the thread, Esprix graciously made the concession that he knows not all straight men are that ignorant. (Emphasis mine.) However, the inferred implication of that statement is that in Esprix’s opinion, a whole passel of straight men are ignorant. Again, that’s a stereotype. (Having said that, I freely admit I might be reading more into that particular comment than is there. If so, I apologize to Esprix.)
And though you asked for examples of Esprix’s posts that indicated prejudice, I would submit that at least one other poster in that thread has a more serious problem. I don’t remember the poster’s name, but I do remember that Hamlet used the poster’s own words against him/her quite effectively.
I believe that if you’re going to lambast someone for their behavior, you should lambast that person solely. There’s no need to (even obliquely) drag a group to which the person belongs into the mix.
I agree. Wholeheartedly. That was part of the point I was trying to get across in the thread title.
And nowhere in that thread did I attack any specific people. I was attacking the comments in general. I went to great lengths not to, although I did make one clarification about whose comments they were in one of those threads.
Esprix
I did no such thing.
You are, indeed, reading way more into that comment than I meant. I acknowledge that only a tiny fraction of the entirety of straight men are ignorant fucks who say demeaning, ignorant and offensive things to lesbians. If any straight man, anywhere, ever got the impression that I meant in any way to infer that all, or even a majority, of straight men are ignorant fucks, I apologize to them.
As I stated elsewhere, I didn’t even want to do that - all I wanted was to point out that comments like “I’m a lesbian trapped in a straight man’s body” are highly offensive to a lot of people. How that turned into a flame-fest against me, well, you’d have to ask those who started it.
I reiterate that I get the impression that if anyone else had posted that thread, it wouldn’t have gone where it did, so I place the blame solely at those who hijacked it with their own petty grievances.
Esprix