But I didn’t say “It’s impossible if you’re not really attractive”. I said, parenthetically, “I’m sure it’s easier if you’re attractive.”
Thank you. Now, why am I perpetually single?
Anyone else feel like embroidering that on a sampler?
Malthus, if you ever clone a younger, less-married version of yourself, let me know, 'kay?
CanvasShoes what are the asking rules when it comes to social (ballroom) dancing in Alaska? I’ve been some places where the guys always asked, but here it is 50/50. In fact, most guys will only ask you to dance if you’ve already danced with them a few times (read: asked them first) or if you know them socially.
It was kinda hard the first times, especially since I’m still pretty much a beginner, but I just look on it as good practice in rejection and courage. I now have no problem asking guys out to dance or coffee.
However, I will still give him a chance to ask me first, just because I know that some guys still like to do a bit of pursuing. And because it’s fun to send signals and flirt across a room 
.
This stuff is so interesting…no wonder these threads are so popular.
I think the difference between rejection in asking someone out is based on the fact that men and women function very differently. And before I get too far into this, I’m not talking about asking out someone you’ve known socially for a while…I’m talking about asking out someone you met for the first time, chatted briefly with, and then asked for a date/number/etc…
A man looks at the woman and thinks “Ok, she’s cute, decent body, nice laugh, easy enough to talk to…I’ll ask her out, and maybe see where this might go.” He thinks this becasue most of the time this is all he can figure out of the woman in the initial conversation.
However, I think women (and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong here, ladies) can learn MUCH more about a man in the same short time period. She not only looks at the face and body, but she looks hygiene and style, as well as body language and voice tone…and she puts all of this together to form a (probably often correct) opinion about the guy. I think women are really good at sensing insecurity, and I think it turns them off. I say this becasue I used to be insecure when talking to women…I’ve since realized that I’m quite the catch (sic) and therefore gained some confidence. You can really see the difference when talking to women. I dont’ know if it’s a concious decision on her part, or if it’s subconcious, or if it’s a smell, or maybe there’s actually a little “robocop” type display in their eyeballs, but somehow, if we’re scared to talk to them, it’s as clear to them as it would be if it were written on our foreheads. And June, I hate to say it, but your post is drenched in insecurity. If you want to ask a girl out, do it. If she rejects you, so be it…there are 3 billion women on the planet. If you don’t ask her out, your percentage chance is 0%…if you do, it’s at least a positive number.
As for paying, if I asked her out, I offer to pay…it’s not really a big deal. If I’m on a first or second date with someone, it’s almost always a quick, light, inexpensive setting (why take her out to a $50 a plate meal when you don’t really know her yet…besides, it’ll likely seem like you’re trying to impress her) so I don’t mind paying…if she offers, I say no once…if she insists on splitting/paying a second and third time, i let her. I don’t understand why people don’t treat dates similar to going out with friends…if you’re trying to get to know someone, why wouldn’t you want to treat them as you treat your friends? (aside from any romantic interactions of course)
This dating stuff should be fun, and it is if you do it correctly.
Thanks! I’m blushing. :o But in a good way. 
Whan thing I’d like to see, is for some of the female posters 'round here do a similar lists of the sorts of mistakes women make - I could do it from my perspective, but I’m interested in what women think about women’s attitudes and experiences!
It would be interesting to compare the two lists, for similarities and differences …
My short list for a first or second date (assume that when I say “men” I mean “most men” and likewise for women):
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Don’t talk to your date like a girlfriend. Men tend to see the feminine “networking” style of communication as more of a “whining” style. They also don’t know how to respond to it, so it can kill a conversation.
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Don’t talk about your body image problems. In fact, the first date is probably not a great time to hilight any personality flaws (unless they include a tendency to strip naked as soon as you get home or an inability to spend longer than 120 seconds in a shoe store).
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Don’t assume that he knows how interested you are in him. Don’t pout if he doesn’t do something that you expected but didn’t tell him about.
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Don’t talk about your former or current relationship troubles. My guy friend actually stopped pursuing a woman who did this to him because he thought that it meant she thought of him as a girlfriend.
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Don’t get too serious unless you are getting some actual, concrete signals that he may reciprocate.
A most excellent list!
Although all of these factors are important, from a man’s perspective, I’d really like to highlight #4. Nothing, but nothing, makes a man assume that he has no chance for a romantic relationship/puts him off, than hearing about a woman’s relationship problems!
Men (in general) tend to assume one or more of the following:
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As you already noted, “she thinks I’m going to be a buddy, not a lover”. There is nothing wrong with that, of course - we all need buddies - but if a woman wants something different, this is unwise.
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“she’s really upset about that guy. She must be really sensitive, judgmental, or easy to anger. Do I want a relationship with her?”
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“boy, does she like to gossip. Here she is, telling me all of this stuff about X. I wonder what she is/is going to tell others about me?”
There is a time for discussing relationship issues, but it is not when you first meet …
Which is not to say some men don’t make this mistake - they do. But not I think as frequently.
Pardon my interruption, but I think this is precisely the double standard the OP was referencing. If a man doesn’t ask a lady out, then he not going to be dating anyone. Whereas if a lady doesn’t ask a man out, then she’s just a typical lady and don’t you worry cause another potential beau will be along shortly to put on a show for you.
It’s one of those sad unfairnesses of life. The weak will always get trounced by the strong. The bold will always outshine the timid, the stupid will always be luckier than the intelligent and women will always be free to ask or not ask without reducing their prospects to any noticeable degree.
Riiiight. Well, perhaps you would be so kind as to write a how-to manual for the less learned.
As for the OP, I completely agree, and a hearty kudos to the lady (as well as the other in this thread) who breaks with tradition.
cowgirl:
It is so refreshing to see there are ladies out there who understand so well why at least some men are hesitant on being forward. It’s also sad to see that you’ve become so frustrated by it.
Nietzsche, I agree there’s definitely a double standard, but my point is, don’t try to fight it, because you won’t win…just go with it. That’s the way it is, and like it or not, it’s generally up to the man to ask the woman out. That gives us more control (not all control obvoiusly), so as someone pointed out, we should be happy. Instead of sitting around wondering/worrying things like “does she like me?” “does she notice me?” “Is she EVER GOING TO ASK ME OUT?!?” we’re in the position to do the asking. Therefore, we ask, get an answer, and either go out with her, or move on. THere’s definitely the double standard, but I think the ladies got the worse part of the deal.
And as for dating being fun, you just have to have fun. Beleive me, i’m not trying to imply that I’m the master at dating, or that i konw everything about dating, or that i have no troubles with dating, becasue beleive me, I do. All I’m saying is when I recently started approacting dating with the attitude of “I’m going to go out with this person, try to have fun, and hopefully we’ll get along…but if we don’t, it wasn’t meant to be.”, I actually started having more fun dating…and strangely, I had much more success. Before, when I was nervous, worrying about what to say and when, the girls were often as uncomfortable as I was. Now, if I just view it as hanging out with someone, trying to have ‘fun’, I usually do have fun, and so does she.
Sorry if I came across as a know-it-all, becasue I’m far from even a know-it-most…but these are my personal experiences, and I myself was amazed at what a difference came from a different mindset.
I agree 100% - that was my experience as well.
My point all along is that anyone can do it - it is just a change of attitude. You don’t have to be super good looking or super studley.
petelin:
I misunderstood your point then. Certainly your take on the matter has probably made you much more successful in your dating than the men who identify with what the OP was getting at.
But if we are in agreement about the double standard, I must take some slight issue with your approach. If men “just go with it” as you suggest, you help to perpetuate this outdated tradition. If men were to just slightly tame their libido, and perhaps allow the ladies to partake in a little chase, it would help both sides understand each other more. Also, getting rid of this tradition will increase the likelihood of more “good relationships.” Not only would the “shy guys,” who would otherwise be a great partner, be more likely to be included in the mix, but the ladies would also no longer have to wait for the “cute guy” to ask them out (and ultimately wind up having to settle for the guy who had the guts to do it).
I couldn’t disagree more. They have the option to ask guys out or not. Men don’t really have such an option. If men want a date, then they’re doing the asking.
[QUOTE=Malthus]
A most excellent list!
Although all of these factors are important, from a man’s perspective, I’d really like to highlight #4. Nothing, but nothing, makes a man assume that he has no chance for a romantic relationship/puts him off, than hearing about a woman’s relationship problems!
On the flip side, nothing seems to peak another man’s interest as much as confiding in him how happy you are with the man you are currently dating!
True Story:
I sometimes go out for a beer after work with a group of the guys I work with. Sometimes I’m the only woman, sometimes not. There has never been any kind of indication that anyone felt that this implied a sexual situation. So one time it was me and two guys. We were shooting pool, they started talking about woman, mostly what this thread was about, how woman are so oblique about their interest. Now, I’m not stupid, I was aware that this might be an attempt to ‘feel me out’ so to speak, so I attempted to set the matter at rest by saying that personally if I was interested in a guy I just came right and said so, and if I didn’t it meant I wasn’t.
We played another round of pool, talked some more, the conversation came back around to the guy-girl thing. They started talking about what women like in a man, so I started giving examples of things MY BOYFRIEND did that were part of what made me like him so much.
When we went to leave one of them walked me to my car and tried to make a move on me. Then the other texted me with some crap about how he was attracted to me and ‘just wanted me to know’.
WTF?
Now, as far as looks go, I’m average. Normally guys are not knocking down my door? So can someone please explain that to me? Maybe give me a male perspective?!?
I’m at a loss.
If I was interested in a woman, and started to talk about “guy-girl stuff” as a way of exploring her interest - and she gave the responses you gave, including stuff about how much you like your boyfriend – I’d back off instantly. Buddies, but that is that.
I mean, is it not obvious to anyone that you are telling them you are not available?
I can only conclude that this pair were not the sharpest tacks in the box.
Or maybe I’m being unfair. Maybe there is something compelling about a woman who is already attached. Me, I’m a simple guy. If a woman is already attached, I assume she isn’t going to go for me, and I wouldn’t dream of trying. Far from peaking my interest, that would kill it completely (at least, interest in that way. I’d still want to play some pool after work ).
Thanks! I wish there were more guys who think women make worthwhile friends.
And going back to the OP, as a woman who tends to be fairly forward with men, I rarely meet men who like it, not even men who showed an interest in me first. God forbid I beat them to the"would you like to go out?" But like so many other said, sometimes you luck out!
And there it is…Diet Coke all over the monitor. Thanks for that.
There is the paradoxical effect that someone in a happy relationship is not likely to be putting out “desperately seeking a relationship” vibes, and will in fact have the sort of confidence and ease at dealing with people that many people find profoundly attractive.
My personal opinion is that probably most people are weird about expressions of interest, and many of them appear to be seriously brain-damaged. I’m voting for “brain-damaged” in the case of LissyLou’s would-be pool-playing paramours.
Hmmm. I think it goes back to a previous post of mine, about how our population is made up of 75% jerks, and the 25% of us that are left, have to try to find our 25percenter opposite sex match while swimming through the sea of jerks out there.
Unfortunately the nice ones who would also be a good match for us, are generally so gunshy from having been burned by too many respresentatives of jerkdom, that they’re hard for their opposite nice ones to find.
Or something like that. I don’t know, I’m currently single too. And it seems as if I’ve spent way too much time in that mode. But, at least my former boyfriend, still good friend was a “good one”.
Since we have so few guys who dance, the women who are married to "leads’ lend them out, and the single men who dance either ask or are asked to dance.
But then, I spend most of my dancing time with a group of dancers who’ve known each other for about 10 or 15 years, so…my data could be skewed.
But come to think of it, when I go to other venues and classes where I’m not with “my” dancers, it’s about the same…
So, women up here feel pretty free to ask men to dance, at least with ballroom, swing dancing, stuff like that. I’m not sure about the young people “plastic people” bars where only free style rock and stuff goes on.
Dancing is pretty damn crucial to me, almost as much as sex, so I have no trouble asking a man to dance.
In the dating world, I have asked, and will ask, but I don’t have the same careless attitude about it, I’m not always bold, and I do chicken out more frequently that I ask. but I’m working on it.
Not true. Since more women are gradually starting to ask men out, in addition to those of us who already did, or at least have some of the time, men have the same “wait to be asked out” and “try to let her know you want to be asked out” options that we’ve been struggling with all of these years.
However, I don’t agree that either side has it “worse”. I think the suffering is likely equal, though delivered by separate vehicles.