Diplomacy/behavior problem re friend's dog

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’m not sure if I’m asking for advice or just venting.

TL;DR: How do I tell a friend (that I’ll soon be living very close to and seeing a lot of) that her sweet dog is totally obnoxious due to never having been trained? Or can I even tell her? Can you tell a person their kid is a brat?

I have a friend (“Mary Lou”) I’ve known for about 20 years. She’s single like me, and an old lady like me (70-sish). Due to various circumstances we’ve gotten closer over the years, mostly because of emotional/health issues of hers. In recent years she had several surgeries, financial problems, and it has been rough. A few years ago she moved to a retirement community-- a really nice one that I knew about because they had been a client of mine. (I wrote grant proposals as a freelancer for about 40 years.) It helped her out a lot as she is a gung-ho extrovert and the community is great. I was glad for her and glad she was settled someplace safe. She’s very happy there.

Right before she moved there she got a dog. She adores the dog-- she’s besotted (as people should be with their dogs-- no criticism there). She started taking the puppy (“D”) to training classes and then Mary Lou had to have surgery and couldn’t complete the classes. Well, she never did follow through with any kind of training for the dog. One time after Mary Lou had had D for a couple of years, I remarked that she had never gotten the dog under control, and Mary Lou got really mad and said, “She’s just a puppy!” and accused me of “maligning my dog.” :roll_eyes: Heck I wasn’t maligning the dog, I was maligning her. That was about six years ago. There is some small lingering tension and some hard feelings over this. Like if you criticize someone’s kid and they have a bit of a grudge toward you ever after.

I firmly believe that dogs want to be good and want to please their owners, but the owner has to take a leadership role. Mary Lou has never done this with D and frankly, can’t seem to bring herself to. When you go to her apartment (which I rarely have done) she puts D in her crate but then the dog barks the whole time. When you’re on the phone with Mary Lou, the dog barks constantly. When D refuses to obey, Mary Lou will yell at her (not loudly or meanly, but with exasperation) and slap her gently on the butt. When that happened one time, I cried, “Don’t hit her! She doesn’t know what you want!” I think Mary Lou sort of knows that D should be better behaved, but she’s in denial. Like the parent in the restaurant or church who sees other kids sitting quietly and notices that her kid is tearing up the place, but doesn’t quite make the connection… And also, like some parents, I think Mary Lou feels it’s “mean” to start laying down rules and controls for your dog. That those people who have well-behaved dogs are just lucky.

Anyway, all of this has been moot because we simply socialized out somewhere and I never had to deal with this sweet, lovable, totally confused doggy.

That all changed last week when my landlord of 10 years told me that he and his wife are getting divorced and I have to move out of my house. :scream: I’ve debated whether to start a thread on this but I don’t feel up to it yet. It was the shock of my life. I’m still reeling. Another story.

To make this story longer, I’m going to be moving, probably by the end of September, to the same retirement community where Mary Lou lives. It is indeed a fantastic place, newly remodeled, great location, strictly independent living, all expenses covered plus meals for an incredibly low cost…blahblahblah. I figured I’d move there one day. I wasn’t ready to yet ( :fu:t4: to my landlord), but oh well. I’ve already paid the deposit and I’m committed. It’s going to be fine.

So now Mary Lou will be my neighbor. There are only 60 residents total at this location of the multi-campus organization, and we’ll be in different wings of the same building on different floors. It’s okay that we will be seeing more of each other… but I just can’t deal with her dog.

The other day I was at the office signing paperwork, and I saw Mary Lou and D walking outside. I went out and immediately D starts barking and pulling on her lead, jumping in the air. (Mary Lou has one of those controlling collars on her with the prongs on the inside… should NOT be necessary. She doesn’t lead her by the neck, thank goodness, but has her on a harness.) You can’t even get close enough to pet her because she gets so excited. She’s not a bad or vicious dog. Clearly, she is consumed with anxiety and just wants to be shown how to be calm. She’s probably about 30 pounds. She has just never been taught how to behave. And dogs want to know this, goddammit and they need their humans to teach them. It’s kind of an unusual breed, so I don’t want to mention it outright. I’ll post it in a way that a general internet search isn’t likely to turn up this thread. V-i-z-l-a.

I mean, if you have friends whose toddlers are truly obnoxious (again, through no fault of their own), you can wait a couple of decades until they grow up. But this dog is just going to get worse. I think a few lessons with a competent dog trainer would go a long way. The cost would be an issue because my friend is on the ragged edge financially and even accepts some help from the facility’s funds. I’d offer to pay, but I also help her out financially and that would be obnoxious of me, I think, and crossing a line.

Sigh. Any thoughts?

(About the dog-diplomacy-behavior issue, not–at this time–about the rest of my life. I may open that door, but I’m quite fragile and not ready yet.)

2

Is the dog dangerous or just rambunctious?

If dangerous (to other people or animals) then definitely say something.

If rambunctious then you need to decide if you will tolerate the dog as it is or not. If not then you need to make excuses to not be around the dog (not come over) or, you need to say something.

As much as we love our dogs I think this is less fraught then telling someone their human child is out of control.

Obviously, there are more or less diplomatic ways to approach the discussion if you want to have it. I can’t really suggest one way or another except to try and keep it light-hearted and non-judgmental (e.g. she’s not a bad dog mom). She’s likely to push back.

Just my $0.02

3

You are correct, that it would be obnoxious and crossing a line. There’s really no play here for you if you’re interested in keeping your relationship with this woman cordial. Just plan to avoid her when she has the dog.

4

I’m sorry you’re losing your place, and hopeful that the new situation represents Bigger And Better Things.

I love my dog as much as anybody ever loved their dog.

So I’m with you.

But I’m – sadly – running out of time in my life, and I’ve definitely learned one thing (and maybe no more than that):

If people don’t ask my advice, then they don’t want my advice.

If people DO ask my advice, they don’t generally want my advice either.

You know who aches the most when another person’s dog is suffering or just isn’t being as well-treated and trained as they should be? Good dog owners.

I remember a few of your threads. You’re a good dog owner. I wish your friend was, too.

Apropos of nothing: I used to walk Sammy – frequently – by the house of the regional Vizsla Rescue guy. I got to meet a fair number of that beautiful breed.

Good luck on the move!!

5

Well, wait… first, what an awful situation to have to deal with. You’re being forced to move and then everything going on with your friend too. I am so sorry to hear all this and truly hoping it all works out well for you.

Now, for the annoying mutt. I can sympathize, I’ve had to deal with untrained dogs, or sometimes worse, poorly trained dogs. They are soooooo annoying. And if they’re not mean, vicious, or dangerous you have to act like an adult human and treat them like a deprived child, deprived of the sense not to bite through leashes, harness, shoelaces, charger cords, and two of my air hoses!

So what can you do? First question, can you train a dog? This dog needs a friends and a trainer. You could be both. Instead of keeping the dog in his crate when you visit, gird yourself for battle with boots, and heavy britches. Wear a heavy coat, do you have something like a hunting jacket? Get some work gloves. OK, maybe you don’t have to go overboard but get ready to play with this dog.

tl/dr if you already know how to train a dog:

Summary

Bring treats. Bacon if you have it. If not look for dried beef lung at a pet store or online (Ag stores usually carry it). That stuff is crack for dogs. They will do anything to get some of that so don’t hand it out indiscriminately. Befriend this potentially good dog, give him a treat when you greet him, then make him do something to get another one. Use consistent cues to set up the task and to deliver the reward. Can he sit? Can he shake hands? Can he stand on his hind legs when you hold some dog crack up in the air? You have to find something, and reward him only when he performs the task properly. Maybe one more treat when you leave. All along the way you have to tell your Mary Lou how much you like the dog and want to be good friends with him if you’ll be neighbors, and how much you like her being your neighbor as well. She’s your good friend so find a way to say it even if you don’t exactly mean it at the moment.

If you can follow through training that dog to respond to a command to sit, even if you have to scratch his back the whole time, then you’re on the way to a well trained dog some day and an another friend of the very best kind who will never forget you.

6

You have my great sympathies. Both for the forced move and for having, with the best of intentions, wrecked your own retirement community due to Mary Lou’s dog.

I live in a large pretty high-end apartment building that says it’s pet friendly. What that means in practice is lots of spoiled tenants with spoiled Dogs That Can Do No Wrong. And yes, their dog is far more important than you are. The only hope real hope in this situation is that the dog or owner will move out or die.

We have a new manager here who is trying to put the [My Dog’s Incessant Barking is Angelic Music to all Human Ears] genie back in the bottle. I am cautiously optimistic they’ll slowly sand the problem down. Mostly by publicly evicting the worst offenders with considerable fanfare.

In your case I think the answer isn’t fixing Mary Lou’s dog. Mary Lou is the problem. Your solution is living in a different campus of the same retirement community. After auditing that one carefully for equally problematic dogs just with different owners.

7

@ThelmaLou , that’s horrible! I can remember some pics you posted of your house/garden, and it was so cute. Same thing happened to a friend of mine (but due to a parent dying, not a divorce), and he had to move after living there over 20 years. Thank goodness you had an alternative that fit for you even if it was too soon!

I had friends who had this breed of dog, and we used to go on camping trips. That dog was a nut. A complete space cadet. But he had been trained and was only nutty within normal parameters.

8

Not dangerous.

@DavidNRockies @TriPolar @LSLGuy @carrps thanks for all your good wishes about my forced move. Y’all made me teary-eyed. I think it will ultimately be okay. I’m moving while I’m still able-bodied and compos mentis. Mostly.

I don’t see myself attempting to train D. I’ve never had to train a dog. I haven’t had all that many dogs, but all of them found me after they reached adulthood and they were generally better behaved and more mentally/emotionally together than I could ever be.

Interesting that the rambunctiousness might be related to the breed. I do believe that dogs express their owners’ personalities and world view. In a serene household, the dogs will be serene. I remember when a good friend’s marriage was on the rocks bigtime, her dog was anxious and out of control-- it was painful to be around a dog in so much distress. There’s nothing woo-woo about this. Dogs are very sensitive and pick up emotions. Mary Lou is anxiety-prone and has a crazy side (not “crazy” as in cute and whimsical, but actually mildly bi-polar), and D reflects and expresses that. I think when you see D barking and jumping around you’re seeing the inside of Mary Lou’s head.

I guess I will just have to keep on avoiding the dog and seeing Mary Lou in the dining room, etc.

9

I think there’s a lot to be said for the owner’s “energy,” but … I know pretty much one thing about dog ownership:

A tired dog is a well-behaved dog.

And some dogs are genetically predisposed to be tired. And some dogs … need a LOT of vigorous exercise.

Sammy’s mostly Lab. We used to cover a LOT of miles. We still cover all the miles we can. Even at age 12 (him, not me), I can tell if weather kept us in the house for 2+ days.

If your friend isn’t/can’t exercise (and I mean … exercise like you read about) the dog enough … it’s going to be tough to improve its behavior too awfully much.

Years ago, I was dating a kindergarten teacher. We spent a lovely weekend together in the California Bay Area. It rained the whole time. I loved it. Her? Not so much*. Monday mornings were always hard, but when the little kids were cooped up inside all weekend? That made Monday mornings her version of hell :wink:

[ETA: *I noticed the unclear reference. She hated the rainy weekend :wink: ]

I think dogs tend to be similar that way.

Maybe all y’all can go for long walks together …

ETA: and that breed? 2+hrs/day of exercise is recommended. This could be a bad fit.

10

You are so right! You have put your finger (paw?) on the problem. There is no way it’s possible for her to exercise D as much as she needs. She walks her twice a day-- short walks-- and takes her to the dog park a couple of times a week.

And then there’s the heat: right now, it’s 106 here. At 6:00 am, it’s 82, and it’s still in the high 90s at 7 pm. A ton more exercise for D would go a long way toward solving the problem.

11

My friends have 2 large dogs (German Shorthair Pointers) that I find annoying. I go to their house sparingly and grin and bear it. Have Mary Lou over to your place when you want to visit.

12

Only if she’s willing to leave the dog behind in her apartment. Which she may not be. And only if the dog is able to remain silent in the apartment in her absence. Which it may not be.

13

Yeah, that’s what I’ll have to do.

@LSLGuy she’ll leave the dog. I don’t know if the dog barks while she’s gone. I guess the neighbors would say something.

14

The neighbors may say something to the manager. Who may or may not act. They are rather less likely to say anything to Mary Lou.

At least that’s been my experience around here. Admittedly the social situation in a retirement home / independent living facility is rather different than in a general apartment building with people everywhere from 30-ish to 75-ish.

I wish you well. Emotionally challenged people are often a life-sucker-outer for those around them. Adding an emotionally challenged dog to the mix is even worse. Don’t drown yourself while working to rescue / fix them.

15

I can understand how you feel about this. You should at least give the dog a treat now and then if you can, he really needs friends. Don’t know how old the dog is, but we were surprised at how it took our dog Duke nearly 4 years before he began to act just a two year old dog, not really all grown up but slightly more sedate than a puppy. As he approaches his 5th birthday we’re seeing the signs of a mature dog personality finally emerging. Hopefully your friend’s dog is a late bloomer also and things will eventually work out for the better. So much for you to deal with…everything has to calm down eventually, I hope sooner than later for you.

16

Does this retirement community have a therapy dog program? Perhaps you could suggest the therapy dog program sponsor training sessions. I am sure both participants and spectators would enjoy this.

17

I’m so sorry you’re going through all this. Your place is perfect for you and I know what an emotional wrench it is for you to have to give it up. But kudos for facing the unexpected disruption with grace and authoritative action. I know you will prevail when the misery of the actual event is behind you.

Re the friend’s dog, I agree with others that your friend has entirely the wrong breed of dog for her living situation and that it is a miserable, under-exercised dog. A hopefully helpful link. As you can see, the breed was intended for hunting and is high energy. It’s all but impossible to train a dog who is so keyed up it can’t even pay attention to you.

I don’t think there is any way you can induce your friend to see the cruelty she’s imposing on her dog by failing to see to its exercise/training needs, so meeting her only on your own terms appears to be the best way to cope with the overall situation. Not ideal, for sure. Try to enjoy the friendship on these limited terms.

My best to you during a challenging time!

18

I’m really sorry about your move. It is really difficult to have to make a major life change that is not under your control. If it helps I would remind yourself that while you didn’t control when to move, you did control where to move. You do have agency in this change.

Others have given good advice for dealing with your friend and with her dog. I will add that, as I’m sure you know, moving to a retirement home is a big adjustment. During the first few months your friend’s dog may not be on the list of your biggest frustrations.

I will add the suggestion that you focus on making friends with a few of the other 60 residents. This will give you socialization options without the dog. It might also provide some allies on that front as well.

19

Does Rover or Wag operate in your town? Because that might be an option. Sit Mary Lou down and tell her straight up that her dog is miserable from lack of exercise and have some breed info links that back you up ready to go. Emphasize that a young dog from active bloodlines is going to go crazy from inactivity and be unhappy–it’s no less abusive to deny a dog proper exercise than it is to deny food. Suggest that hiring some bright energetic young thing on Rover to come in several times a week and take that dog out for a bunch of exercise would be a kindness and a blessing for the dog and consequently for everyone around. If she sees the extra exercise making a difference in the dog’s behavior, it might make her more amenable to working more to curb the dog’s worst issues. Worth a shot anyway. Worst case scenario she decides you aren’t friends any more but if that’s enough to cause a permanent break, might be better for everyone.

20

We’re not supposed to talk about the move, y’all! Just tell Thelma we love her, and figure out this dog problem.