You’re lumping an entirely volitional, non-familial “friendship” where she’s pretty much guaranteed to get molested, pawed and groped by her pal’s husband, with heroin and cocaine addiction?
Okay then.
If someone else is pretty much guaranteed to behave badly she does bear some real world degree of responsibility to her own well being to employ common sense and protect herself from being being molested by this jackass. I got the impression this happens pretty much every time they are in proximity not “once a year”, but even if it is once a year or only few times a year it’s good to know there is an acceptable annual level of groping that a woman should be expected to tolerate for the sake of friendship. I would have thought it should be impermissible period.
I may not bear any responsibility for a grizzly bears behavior, but if I insist on trying to pet him on the bet that this time it’ll work out and keep getting mauled I am entirely without responsibility for getting mangled?
In regards to motivation only.
Read up, son.
But the molester isn’t a grizzly bear. He’s not some force of nature. He can change. I don’t think we should ever write off a sentient human’s actions that way. He has the responsibility to make his behavior socially acceptable.
But responsibility isn’t zero sum. Even we if assume that the OP bears some responsibility for her bad outcomes with this guy, that doesn’t necessarily make him any *less *responsible. Likewise, just because the problem wouldn’t exist without the asshole’s inappropriate touching, that doesn’t mean that there are no standards of appropriate behavior to which the OP can held. That’s why it’s not necessarily bad form to talk about what the victim did wrong: if the guy in question was here we could tell him about how he’s fucking up, but since he’s not, just talking about that doesn’t really get us anywhere. OTOH, however bad his behavior is, there’s a right way and a wrong way for the OP to respond to it (and she’s here, actually asking for advice).
As for the OP’s specific problems, I don’t know. It might be that it’s something that requires a more forceful personality than Miss Gnomer (apparently) possesses. There are ways to stop the behavior (towards you) without completely alienating your friend or even her husband, but it could get tricky (you’d have to be jokey and self-deprecating while also making an unambiguous and firm request that he basically stop touching you altogether, *while *his wife (but no one else) is present and everyone is in a pretty good mood – a real social high-wire act). If that’s beyond your ken, then I suppose either grin and bear it or never be in his company, even telling your friend that you just don’t like her husband if it comes to that.
The situation with his niece is a lot harder. Am I right in understanding that you have essentially no relationship with this girl or her family? In that case, rightly or wrongly, you just don’t have standing to raise an objection with them; you’d be written off as nosy and delusional. Probably the best you could do is talk to your friend and hopefully she can be on the lookout for this type of behavior in the future. (Talking to the husband directly about it would almost certainly do no good, and I don’t think there’s a way to approach **that **conversation without his getting upset with you.)
In any event, good luck.
True, but I’m not sure if this has bearing on the issue. Whether the groper can change or not, he hasn’t, so the OP puts herself at risk of being groped whenever he’s around.
I absolutely disagree with this. If anything, I think it shows how sick and devious the groper is. People don’t kiss other people’s hands in this age and culture. He obviously can’t get away with full-on gropage at church, but he’s got her trapped by the circumstances into accepting this more covert but inappropriate action, and they both know it. Given their previous history, what might be taken as “eccentric but innocent” by indulgent church observers means something else entirely between the two of them.
I’m inclined to believe that the truth rests on the side of the OP. The OP’s situation brings to mind on of the teachers in my very small, conservative Christian middle school. He would make offhand remarks about certain girls in the class that would’ve had his ass canned with alacrity in a public school; telling thirteen-year-old girls that they were sexy, that he’d like to give them a kiss, that he wished he were young again, etc. It was a tiny school - everyone knew he was like that, including his wife. When my parents brought it before the principal, her reply was, “Mr. X is a good man.” That was all she had to say about the subject. There are some obvious differences between my experiences and the OP’s, of course, but I can see how a wife might choose to ignore some pretty blatantly bad behavior on the husband’s part by telling herself, “That’s just how he is. This is the man I married, and he’s not perfect, but hey, everyone has their quirks.” I almost feel that among certain Christians, turning a blind eye to these sorts of perversions happens more often, because there’s such a strong “us vs. them” attitude towards the secular world, which generates undeserved protectionism.
True, the groper’s behavior not the OP’s responsibility, but it is her responsibility to remove herself from a harmful situation that shows no promise of improvement. I don’t see the indignity of being sexually taken advantage of by the husband to be worth the friendship, especially since the OP’s friend knows about the situation and doesn’t do anything to prevent it. Maybe the friend is too weak [in terms of character, not physically] to stop her husband, but as a direct consequence of that weakness, the OP is being harmed. Ms_Gnomer, you don’t have to blame her for that weakness, but it is your onus to protect yourself, which would involve not seeing her in person or perhaps meeting in public places, sans husband. Enter the Flagon talks about the complications of what makes people “come back for more”, but it’s not as if the OP were in a committed relationship with the groper. There seems to be enough social distance that she should be able avoid him going through too much of a life change.
Whilst I have a choice to avoid this man (obviously no does not mean no to him and no matter how many times I say it, it will not stop him) … his niece does not. She will see him many more times than I will … and she is 10 years old.
Whatever faults in my own behaviour there have been … I do have a choice to approach the father? the mother (my friend)? or none? … at this stage I’m considering talking to my friend … and trying to explain that her husband needs to realise these are not baby girls anymore … that they are going to be teenagers soon, and all that brings, and that he is teaching them to be victims. I’ll also be telling her that any future invitations are for her and her children only and I will not go to their home if he is there - and if that brings the end of the friendship, then I shall lose them. At this stage I can not imagine anyone else in their social group saying anything about his behaviour towards this girl … I’m not family, maybe that gives me a chance to say what others wont?
Another note on his behaviour … when I first met him, he of course did not grope me from the start … that would have been easier to deal with! What was a normal social greeting between adults has gradually turned into something I find repulsive … there was no single point that I could say it suddenly changed. A kiss on the cheek to a hug, to a hug with a rub on the back, a hug with an attempt to tickle, a hug with a nuzzle in my neck, playing tussle with the kids he’s suddenly in amongst us and a hand goes where it shouldn’t, then a hug with an extra squeeze, a hug with a squeeze and a bit of a chest rub, a pass in the kitchen with a stroke across my back, an encouragement to the kids to group hug me … etc etc to its peak where no part of my body is safe from his groping hands (I’d bend over to grab something off the floor to find his hands on my back) … I’ve gradually be reclaiming my body … the last times we have met it has ended at a slightly excessive hug with me telling him no.
To flyboy … the church example: let’s try it this way … you’re in a business meeting with a whole lot of people … a range of sexes and ages … the normal social greeting is to shake hands … everyone is shaking hands … one man grabs the hand of a female colleague and attempts to kiss it … ??? In the workplace - that is sexual harrassment … why is it any different in a church/social setting?
You’re still beating yourself up for this guy’s behaviour. The way he acts isn’t your fault. Stop taking the blame for “not reacting properly” in the past - you’ve reacted clearly enough that this guy knows what he’s doing is wrong and he does it anyway. That’s all on his head. Your suggestions of only meeting your friend out of the house, without him, sound sensible to me - and if she won’t do it, then definitely dump her.
With regard to this little girl, talking to your friend is a good idea - though she’s not really listened to you, so there’s no real reason to suspect she will do so in this instance. She might though, in a “think of the children” kind of way - it’s worth a try. Talking to him would be utterly counterproductive - again, he knows what he’s doing. Pointing it out to him won’t suddenly give him some epiphany and make him realise he shouldn’t be doing it. He’s a bully. Pointing it out in public might embarrass him into behaving, but it sounds like he’s pretty immune to embarrassment. It doesn’t sound like there’s a lot you can do other than that for this girl - talk to your friend and try to get her to do something, speak up in public if you see him being a prick, and for your own sake, stay away from him as much as possible, since this guy won’t change.
Emphasis mine
No part of your body is safe from his groping hands? It sounds like his hands have always been on your back. That’s not to say that if he is going too far that it’s not horrible and that you still need to do something, but let’s not exaggerate like that, if I’m reading you correctly.
It isn’t any different. Both situations rely on the person being harassed to say something otherwise the harasser will continue to get away with it.
Until I see some reputable sources that say hand-kissing is a form of sexual harassment, I’m going to continue to disagree on this point. I just don’t see that particular argument holding up at all in a court of law (but then, IANAL). A guy copping a feel of a butt or breast is pretty irrefutable in my book. A hand on the back is pretty grey. Kissing the hand, even when taking into account a history of transgressions, is still entirely subjective.
Well, I think kissing her hand when she’s already shown herself to be pretty uncomfortable with even his “hugs” definitely is.
If she doesn’t want the hand-kissing and has made it clear she doesn’t like to be touched by him at all it’s definitely harassment, as Slit said.
There’s something in your OP I don’t understand - can you explain this: “he of course picked on me because of who/what I am”?
transgressions that toe the line are insidious. like trolls on message boards, you’d rather have them be blatant and conspicious so you can ban them outright. some of the doubts raised in this thread, though valid, is exactly why these people are able to continue as they do. it is difficult enough for the OP, an adult, to convince us or even herself. what chance has the child?
When has she made it clear to him that she doesn’t appreciate that behavior? Maybe I missed it where she said, but as far as I’ve read, she’s only told the wife. So a) she hasn’t informed him verbally, and b) she offered her hand to him in church. He didn’t grab it.
That’s a good question and obviously it does depend on how she’s handled it. All I said was that if he knows she doesn’t like it and continues it’s harassment. The whole “I struggled to get away with all my might” thing is really ambiguous. I don’t see why she’s willing to do that but unwilling to tell him she doesn’t like it. Telling him that won’t make him stop, necessarily, but it will take it out of the grey and plant it firmly in harassment territory. I encourage her to sack up.
If you suspect that a child may possibly be encountering abuse, you can call the National Child Abuse Hotline: 1-800-4-A-CHILD. That’s what I would do, IMHO.
To Miss_Gnomer, this is a bad situation. You are correct that he is behaving inappropriate toward you, and that you need to (a) be more forceful in letting him and anyone else around know it is inappropriate, and/or (b) ensure you are never around him. That may mean only seeing your friend when he isn’t there, only seeing them in public venues, or it may mean severing the friendship. Sucks, but you do need to protect yourself.
Yes, you do bear a burden of responsibility for not standing up for yourself in the past. This is not to say you were asking for it or to place blame, but to acknowledge that you have not been taking care of yourself and letting him get away with making you uncomfortable because of social situations. There is no situation where it is inappropriate for you to stand up for yourself. If he tries to kiss your hand in church, say “Stop that!” and pull your hand away, and glare at him like he is a repulsive slug. You need to put the discomfort on him - he is the one misbehaving. If people start wondering what that’s about, and you’re not comfortable saying “This man is Gropey McGroperson and I won’t stand for it any more,” in that venue, then just say, “I’m not comfortable with that behavior.” They don’t get to define your comfort zone.
You say you have issues with standing up for yourself, that you feel defenseless. I would recommend that you get some counseling - find a therapist. There are behavioral therapists that can help you learn to have more confidence and assert yourself more. Also, they could give you advice for how to help the girl.
Unfortunately, your friend seems oblivious to what the husband is doing with you. Therefore, she is oblivious to his behavior with the girl. Similarly, the rest of the family may not be observing or may be rationalizing her response. Unfortunately, I don’t think that you saying something to your friend or her family will make a difference. You are an outsider, and your lack of previous action will make your current action suspect to them. They will deny it - it is common occurrence to deny what they don’t wish to accept.
Your best course of action may be to call Child Protective Services in your area and report your own experiences and witnessed behavior. I believe you can do so and remain anonymous so he will not know who reported him, if you so desire. They will have to investigate any situation, and just having them inquire into the matter will put scrutiny on his behavior. Also, they can talk to the girl. Whether she talks to them honestly you cannot control, but they are experienced in the situation and have more training and standing than you.
Do you honestly feel that the girl is being molested/groped? Can you feel good about yourself, knowing that he is doing to her what he is doing to you, and that you know she does not approve but has less ability to defend herself than you do, and the people who should be protecting her are not? Can you really accept for yourself “this girl is not my responsibility” and comfort your conscience?
Can the man change his behavior? It is possible, but not if he is not confronted about it. As long as everyone lets him get away with it, he will continue, because it is gratifying for him and there is no penalty, no social cost.
Angry Lurker said:
Really, your first assumption is that the OP has a condition that makes her take things differently? Whatever, it does not matter - he is making her uncomfortable. He does not have the right to touch her.
Okay, it is fair to ask if there is something that you are projecting onto the neice. One approach would be to talk this over privately with your friend, let her know very clearly his behavior with you goes beyond mere playfulness and that you fear he is doing the same thing with the neice. Tell her that you have a hard enough time standing up for yourself and you are not a 10 year old girl. I don’t know that it will work, your friend may be dismissive of his behavior. She chastises him about making you uncomfortable, but doesn’t demand he stop it. Though if you just react as if you are mildly uncomfortable rather than strongly objecting, it could be she just doesn’t realize the extent of what he’s doing to you.
It doesn’t matter, he’s making the OP uncomfortable. He does not have the right to touch her.
dangermom said:
Going from 1 to 11 is probably not indicated. An intermediate step of 7 would be advised. You need to make a clear, unambiguous declaration that his behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated, regardless of how you have reacted in the past.
“No, I will not hug you. Your behavior is inappropriate, and I’ve let you get away with it for far too long. Well, that stops NOW. No more touching. I do not appreciate it, I do not enjoy it, it is not playful fun, it is not joking around or kidding, it is uncomfortable and creepy and I will not tolerate it any longer.”
If it gets to the point it takes a knee to the groin or a stomp to the instep, then he might react violently back, so it could escalate to something requiring real physical defense. And that will almost certainly strain the friendship you have with the wife. One or both of you (you, the man) going to the hospital would be a significant dent in your friendship. (And yes, if you start reacting violently, it could go that far.)
Magiver said:
I’ve got a number of uncles and aunts that are huggers. The description given goes beyond mere bear-hugging.
You need to get over this. He is the one who has made the situation rude.
flyboy said:
Wrong, flyboy. It was an act of power. He couldn’t fondle her in church, so he took power in a different way, that seems harmless to the casual observer. Kissing a hand is a “charm” move that is reserved for women you are intimate with or want to be intimate with. American males do not casually kiss other women’s hands. Would you kiss your mother’s hand? Your best-friend’s wife’s hand? Introduced to your boss’s wife, give it a little kiss of politeness? It is not an act of politeness or an act of friendship - it is practically a declaration of romance.
**AClockworkMelon ** said:
Read more carefully. Just because she didn’t explicitly say “then he stroked my clitoris” doesn’t mean he’s only touching her back.
Miss_Gnomer, would you wish to clarify the areas he’s touching? So far we have touching the back, nuzzling the neck, his hand going “where it shouldn’t”, “an extra squeeze”, and “a squeeze and a bit of a chest rub”. Is that his hand rubbing your chest, or his chest rubbing your chest? What constitutes an extra squeeze?
I read carefully. All she said was that he hugged her and kissed her hand. The “rubbing her chest” part seemed to imply him rubbing his body against hers inappropriately during a hug, just like she described seeing with the little girl. We can’t assume that anything has happened beyond what she told us.
I don’t think it matters where he’s touching her - the bottom line is she doesn’t like it, and she has every right in the world to not like whatever he’s doing. I’m not a huggy-touchy person; I would have been avoiding this guy if all he was doing was giving me a chaste hug every time we met, because I don’t like that. I have defense mechanisms that the OP could stand to learn, though - I don’t get many unwanted hugs. Oh, I just had a thought for the OP - watch Craig Ferguson’s show. He hugs all his guests, and some of his guests are extremely smooth about avoiding a hug.
Honestly, I really don’t know what to do about the 10 year old, though. You don’t want to ruin a guy’s life because he likes to hug, but you don’t want to put a 10 year old in the position of being repeatedly groped, either, especially by a guy you know has boundary issues.