I think it matters.
It’s still harassment, even if his hands are only touching her back. Of course it is.
But I still think it matters where he’s touching her. There’s a difference between giving her inappropriate hugs and squeezing on her tits from behind.
I’d just like to point out that “blaming the victim” isn’t always a fallacy. It depends on the conclusion one is trying to support.
Wrong: “The attacker is innocent because the victim’s behavior encouraged the attack to happen. It’s not the attacker’s fault because the victim was asking for it.”
Right: “The victim displayed risk behavior. If the victim refrains from doing to in the future, the chances of repeated offense is lessened.”
So let’s say you keep going to a bar and keep getting beat up there. It’s wrong to blame the victim in order to absolve the assaulters of responsibility. It is not wrong, however, to suggest that the victim is wrong to expect to go to the bar and come out healthy.
I’m not commenting on the OP one way or the other, I just wanted to point out that saying “Jim’s blaming the victim” doesn’t always make Jim wrong.
Because saying “stop it” is more confrontational than wiggling away. Being confrontational, when its not in your nature to be that way, is the path of greater resistance. So she chooses the less confrontational path because it’s easier on her, even while knowing its not the best course of action for putting the guy in his place.
I typically hate threads like this because so many posters feel it is necessary to quiz and lecture the OP about their behavior and their reactions, all the while ignoring or minimizing the fact that the guy in question is acting like an apehole. Miss_Gnomer already daggone acknowledged that she has handled things weakly and that she knows what she should have done, so those who are criticizing her are just telling her stuff she already knows.
And yes, those who are harrassed need to speak up to their harrassers. But it’s important to realize that a person can still be acting inappropriately even though no one has verbally told them to stop. How many times on average do regular, socially-aware, respectful people touch others in ways that are reasonably likely to cause discomfort or offense? How often do normal, non-skeevy people try to compell others into chest-to-chest hugs, back rubbing, and unexpected kisses to the hand? Continually doing things that can easily make someone uncomfortable, without ever asking yourself whether these things are actually welcome because “hey, they never told me to stop” doesn’t make you innocent of wrongdoing. It just makes you massively insensitive and creepy. Especially if the person is showing you signs of discomfort that you choose to disregard or be oblivious to.
The problem isn’t that he likes to hug. It’s that he continues to push your boundaries even after being told it makes you uncomfortable (assuming his wife has told him so.)
Look, if you want him to stop, you have to tell him to stop. The only way to really find out if this guy is just socially clueless and/or just a huggy person vs. a creep is to find out how he reacts to being told, straight out, ‘stop.’ You can even be polite about it, as long as you are clear. “I don’t like being hugged or touched by you and I want you to stop.” Anything he says after that to try to convince you otherwise should just be responded to with repeating the same “I don’t like it and I want you to stop.” Don’t explain further or get into an argument about it, just repeat until he gets it. He may pout or get mad, but oh well.
Any person with a molecule of sense/decency, no matter what their own preferences or cultural upbringing, does not continue to touch someone in a personal way after they have been told to stop. Heck, I have an aunt who is mentally disabled and she is very physically affectionate, and even she understands that some people don’t like that, and she leaves them alone. If people can tell my well-meaning aunt not to touch them, you can tell this guy.
Once he knows that you or anyone else does not like to be touched that way, if he continues, all bets are off. I don’t care what anyone’s reasoning is for not liking to be hugged, if they tell you no, you stop, even if you have good intentions for hugging them. If you care about someone enough to hug them, you care about them enough to be considerate. Or else you are hugging/touching for some other reason, namely your own gratification.
As far as the girl goes, if you have a relationship with her or her parents, you might want to say something like, “I noticed it seemed like you were uncomfortable around Mr. X. He makes me uncomfortable too, and I am going to tell him to stop hugging me. You can tell him that too.” Or something similar. Be an example for this girl.
Evidently you need to re-read some of the postings. She has told him to stop. She offered her hand in church to her female friend, and the asshole husband reached past his wife to grab her hand and kiss it.
Perfectly normal behaviour, of course. Happens every day, nothing to complain of. :rolleyes:
I understand being skeptical of claims posted here. If nothing else, we’re only getting one side of the story. But it seems to me that some of y’all are looking REALLY REALLY hard to find reasons why this is the poster’s fault, rather than the asshole’s.
I am not blaming the victim or absolving the harasser of his responsibility to keep his fucking hands to himself. I’m just saying that this woman needs to say “no.” That or never be around him again. Ever.
I had the same reaction to Angry Lurker’s suggestion of Aspberger. Really, if it was about that wouldn’t she say the same thing about most people, not just single out this guy?
Also, I do feel like I’ve heard a lot people say this–that people push their boundaries even though it’s not something they can pinpoint. And they’re so afraid of being told that it’s in their head and they even convince themselves that it’s in their head. But the person really is being creepy. It has not ever happened to me personally but I know this is a really common feeling to have about that creepy person in your life that you can’t really get rid of.
Not if both of them make her uncomfortable. There really isn’t an acceptable level of groping, where some body parts are ok, but others aren’t.
You’re completely misinterpreting what I’m saying.
I flat out said that they’re both inappropriate. But some things are more inappropriate than others. Otherwise he might as well be raping her. It’s making her uncomfortable, right?
No, you’ve obviously not read carefully.
No, it’s assault if the kid doesn’t want to be touched.
I know a bunch of people who kiss on the cheek when they hug.
Hug.
A hug with an attempt to tickle? What does this even mean? Where is he tickling you?
More inappropriate hugging.
Where?
More inappropriate hugging.
More inappropriate hugging.
Touching her back.
Inappropriate hugs from children.
Touching her back.
I missed this, apologies.
But as I said upthread, so far all she’s said is that he’s hugged her inappropriately, really. That’s what led to my original question as to whether she was exaggerating when she said that “no part of [her] body is safe.” I’m not even claiming that she is exaggerating. But she is being ambiguous.
But not for the purposes of this thread, which was to solicit opinions on what she should do with regard to a 10 year old girl. We don’t need to know where the OP was groped, or how many times, or anything else about it - asking for all these details is unnecessary and probably not very pleasant for the OP. How would you like to have to relive humiliating experiences for the entertainment of people you’ve never met before, many of whom seem determined to tell you it’s all in your head anyway?
For someone who doesn’t want to relive the humiliation she seems to be including a great amount of detail when it comes to how he’s hugging her and touching her back.
And I don’t think it’s all in her head. The guy is scum and she should seriously limit her contact with him, considering I doubt she’d be willing to go further than that. She needs to, at the absolute minimum, speak to the little girl’s parents. And let’s be real; she knows that she needs to do something. But what’s right is almost never what’s easy.
I really think a separation of the two issues should be enforced here. Let’s keep the discussion here about what should be done about the little girl in the OP, and take the rest of it elsewhere if Miss_Gnomer wishes to go down that path, o.k.?
Actually, this probably isn’t something we should even be discussing here - the OP should probably be discussing this with a good counsellor who can advise her about her role in protecting a young girl but not destroying a man’s life unnecessarily.
flyboy said:
Let me ask you this: please list the social situations where you would think it appropriate to kiss a woman’s hand. Any of the following make sense?
Coworker when greeting her for the day (Hello, smooch).
Friend’s wife when meeting her for the first time.
Coworker’s wife when meeting her for the first time.
Coworker’s wife you have seen as social functions for several events.
Neighbor lady you say hello to when she walks her dog, when she brings you a christmas treat.
Best friend’s wife whom you know well and often hang out with.
Waitress at a restaurant, while tipping her.
Waitress at a strip club, while tipping her.
Stripper at a strip club, while tipping her.
Your child’s teacher on school open house.
Woman you meet in a bar and buy a drink.
Woman you’re grinding with on the dance floor.
The girl scout you bought cookies from.
Your 15 year old neice.
Your mother, when you greet her at the door for holiday get together.
I count maybe 3. If you pick more than 5, you should seriously think about the message you are sending out.
Even if I could conceive of a situation where I would shake the hands of my coworkers, I can’t come up with a reason why I would try to kiss one. If I heard of a situation where one male kissed a female’s hand at work, I would think they were dating/married. Unless we soon afterwards had a special reminder about sexual harassment and respecting each other at work.
With regards to the OP’s situation, the clear situation is that he kissed her hand through a pattern of physical intimacy that she does not appreciate. Now he just might be clueless enough to think they have that kind of special friendship that means closer touching is okay, but given that she has told the wife and the wife makes a point of reminding him that the OP has said she doesn’t enjoy it, I find that hard to believe. He knows what he is doing, he is pressing the situation because the OP has let him, and he’s doing it for his own gratification, not caring what the OP feels.
AClockworkMelon said:
No, a nuzzle is more than hugging, it is putting your face in to their neck and rubbing/kissing.
Obviously more than a hug. Since she’s stated back numerous times, probably not the back. Where else would a woman use a euphamism? Maybe the crotch? Her ass? Grab a boob? Oh, I know, he stuck his finger up her nose - he definitely shouldn’t do that, that must be what she meant.
I agree, ambiguous, but an extra squeeze can mean more than an additional hug, it could mean placing the hand somewhere and squeezing.
The point here is not that the children shouldn’t hug her, it is using the children to manipulate her into letting him get his hands on her again. It is a “group hug”, which means he gets to hug, too. Ergo, grope time.
Actually, she’s using a fair amount of euphamisms and avoiding details, almost like she’s embarrassed or ashamed by it. Go figure.
Cat Whisperer said:
Maybe some advice on where she can find a good counselor? How she can go about getting advice?
The women of yesterday were not stupid. Have you tried the time honored tradition of throwing a drink in his face?
I was told by a mod to stay on the topic of how to handle the situation with the little girl. Seeing as I can’t respond to this, you shouldn’t be saying it.
Seriously? You’re seriously going to say to her “oh it’s just a hug”? :rolleyes: