Do NOT assume that because I don't have kids I'm in the wrong!

The BBQ Pit
41

Being a 37 year old dyke nobody has ever asked me about when I am having kids which is also annoying, being a lesbian does not have any effect on whether or not you wish to breed, just on whether or not it is likely to happen accidentally.

I have no desire however and have never had much to do with sprogs. I have a 18 year old single mum as a neighbour who seems to assume that a woman in my age bracket will know about kids. She races in here constantly with runny noses and fevers and please just watch her for 5 minutes requests. The dude who lives between us raised 3 kids to adulthood, would probably love the chance to play grandad and is much more interested in them than I but because I am a middle aged woman she only thinks to come to me.

She desperately needs support, I am aware that without it this kid with a kid and no skills could easily slip into trouble so I offer what I can but where does the idea that all women know kids better than all men come from? She knows I have never been near them and have no clue whatsoever.

42

True. That.

I will not EVER want a child someday. Wanna know why? Because I had ITP for seven years. It’s been in remission for four. Wanna know what having ITP is like? Constant bruising. Hellaciously heavy periods. Going up to the hospital every few months to get an IV. Being needlephobic while getting said IV (okay, that’s just me). Having horrid hangover-like reactions as a side effect to the IV (I’ve never been drunk, yet I know exactly what a hangover is like). Know what would happen if I got preggers? IT WOULD COME RIGHT BACK.

The hormones rushing through me during puberty were the fuckin’ trigger that started my immune system on its quest to destroy me. Those same hormones rushing through me during pregnancy would retrigger it and send my platelet count on a crashing spiral downwards. Not to mention the lovely complications that would arise that would threaten the life of that worthless zygote. And if I and the baby came out of it alive, the baby would more than likely have ITP as well. However, it would get over it in a few weeks/months while I would be struggling against it for years and most likely have to have the surgery I thankfully avoided to get over it. Think that would cause some resentment problems? Hell yes it would. I would definitely hold that child’s more resilient immune system against it and allow it to taint our relationship.

Can I get my tubes tied? Hell no. Even with the risks, I can’t get it done because I haven’t shoved a human through my cervix yet. Fuck. That. Noise. :mad:

My niece and nephew, however, are Perfect Children ™ and I can’t get enough of them for short periods of time. I enjoy my Aunt Powers that allow me to hand said Perfect Children back to my sisters and say, “Well, it’s been fun but I gotta go now!” just as the tantrums strike. That’s what real power feels like. Oh yeah…

43

I think it’s a shame that there is so much resistance to young people who want to be sterilized. I feel that people are entitled to get sterilized at any age over 18. Getting a tubal at a young age is not necessarily easy, but it can be done. I know of two 21 year old childfree women who just got snipped within the last three months. They both had to undergo psychiatric evaluations to prove that they really were prepared to have a tubal, but that seems like a reasonable way to weed out the unstable and ambivalent IMO.
Here is a website set up by a woman who got a tubal at 25 to advise others in her position: http://www.herownwoman.com/howtogetatubal.html
This is the letter she wrote her doctor to persuade him:
http://www.herownwoman.com/letter.html

There is evidence that young people tend to have more regrets about sterilization, but over all, MOST people do not regret sterilization:
http://webmd.lycos.com/content/article/1689.52865

From my anecdotal observation and from the studies I’ve seen about the issue, the majority of cases of regret seem to involve people who already had kids and then had their circumstances change to allow for another baby (for example, a woman gets remarried and decides she wants a baby with her new hubby).

From
http://magazines.ivillage.com/goodhousekeeping/hb/health/articles/0,12873,284595_295927,00.html

Incidentally, I am not childfree myself and have no desire to get a tubal anytime soon. But I can definitely see that parenting isn’t for everyone, just like not everyone wants/needs to own a dog, cat, parrot, or pet monkey. As a pro-lifer, I would rather see unwanted pregnancies prevented altogether, and certainly believe in adoption for those who might end up wanting a child after all. Some people might end up regretting it, but I don’t think that is sufficient justification for making it impossible for other young people to get sterilized. Some young people no doubt get a stupid-looking tattoo and end up regretting it, but I imagine most people would find it ridiculous if tattoos were off limits for anyone under 30-35 y/o.

44

But how could you possibly know this for absolute certain at age 18? (I’m assuming we’re talking about things that once done cannot be reversed easily - am I wrong?)

45

This entire part of the post could’ve come right out of my mouth verbatim, and has probably come out of my mouth in a very close paraphrase a hundred or so times since I was 18.

I’ve been trying since then to find a doctor who will cut and tie my tubes, and after thirty or so of them, I have still had absolutely no luck. Some of the things doctors have actually said to me:

-Just give up sex if you really don’t want kids, then you can be sure never to have one.
-You’ll want them in ten years, so consider my refusal a favor.
-You’re going to sue me when you get the urge all women get.
-Your biological clock is going to tick even though you deny having one.
-There is no such thing as a woman who doesn’t want to have kids.
-When you meet Mr. Right, you’re going to want to have lots of babies.
-You can’t decide you want to have a tubal because you don’t already have kids.
-Your husband has to consent to such surgery. Oh, you’re not married? Come back when you are.

And my personal favorite ‘You’re young, how do you know you don’t want kids? Why, I didn’t want kids until my wife and I were 35.’

To which I responded ‘I know this the same way you know you’re heterosexual.’

Because deciding to never have kids is a permanent decision, and at 22 or 24 you’re incapable of making a permanent decision? Well, deciding to have a kid is a permanent decision too, and I’ve never seen the kind of ‘You’re too young to make permanent decisions’ hogwash aimed at someone who decided at 22 to have a baby with their spouse. It’s not that it’s ‘permanent’, it’s that it’s the ‘wrong’ permanent decision.

Again, sounds familiar. Only in my case it was steroids that set my immune system on the warpath. It still is set on ‘destruction and annihilation’ mode, and anything hormone based that I take means my immune system rages to a level that not even the drugs I take every day to suppress it can handle. Makes the people who say ‘Oh just go on Depo’ or ‘What’s the big deal if you get pregnant’ shrivel to hear ‘It could very well kill me’.

46

Severe risk to health usually is a good indicator.

47

Hmmm. They put me on steroids to try to get my platelet count up. Didn’t work. I just now got off the extra weight. After 11 years. Shoot, just from the prednisone I look like I’ve already given birth.

I’ve never been on hormonal bc and never want to be. Don’t wanna risk it, don’t wanna risk it, don’t wanna risk it! Surely there’s a better way!

48

I’ve seen it plenty of times. You’ve never heard people say to someone that they’re too young to be having kids? I find that a little hard to believe, with all due respect.

And yes, I think - and this is just an opinion; if someone I knew chose to make this decision, that’s their decision to make - that at that age it’s a little tougher to make that permanent decision than it is at a later age. I’m not saying a 22-year-old is too immature to make the decision - I’ve known a lot of people that age who were far more mature than I am now - but I’m saying that their lack of worldly experience might work against them.

49

A good indicator of what? I’m confused.

50

dantheman, deciding whether to have kids or not to have kids is just another life decision, a personal choice – just like the decision to drink alcohol or not, to eat meat or not, to get married or not, to get a tat or piercing or not, to have cosmetic surgery or not, to enter a certain profession or not, to buy a house or not, to live in the city or not, and on and on. These other choices just do not seem to generate as much rancor in other people (IME) as the choice of not wanting children. We childfree-by-choice folks are just getting more than a little tired of being judged so severely about our decision to OMIT something from our lives, of being treated as if there is something wrong with us because of what we want, and of the incredibly patronizing attitude of “You’ll change your mind.” Just because others want it doesn’t mean that we do. It’s a personal choice, no one else’s business, and not your (generic “your”) problem if by some fluke we do happen to regret the decision – regrets are part of life, and if we regret any choice, that’s just our too bad. Why is that so hard to understand? (Po-tay-to, po-tah-to, and all that.)

On preview: I think it’s pretty clear that SpazCat means that one can reasonably expected to KNOW that one does not want kids (and thus clearly be entitled to sterilization) when one knows that bearing them might kill one. Do you really think SpazCat should want to risk her life to bear a child just to make society happy?

51

Scarlett, we’re talking about two different issues here, I think. Deciding not to have kids is one thing; having surgery that cannot be reversed easily is another thing altogether. (And please, if someone can let me know that this procedure can be reversed easily, let me know. I’m not a doctor, and this has certainly never come up with me before.)

If you’re 18, 19, 22, whenever, and decide that having kids would be a bad idea, then I can’t find any fault with that. Good for you for having the wherewithal to make that decision. Sure, someday maybe you’ll want them, but for the time being, you know enough about yourself and your own capabilities to know that now is definitely not that time.

But if you say to yourself (at a comparatively young age), “I’m never, ever, ever having kids! Kids are awful, evil! I’m going to have my tubes tied!” then I have to question the decision. Again, if you were my friend and made this decision, I would support you in any way I could. I’d question it, but it’d be your decision.

Re SpazCat: Ok, see, that’s different - and if the OP stated that and I missed it, I apologize. Certainly, if one knows having kids would be harmful to oneself (not to mention, potentially, to the newborn), then making this decision is a no-brainer.

52

No, we’re really not. Having a surgical procedure is a means of turning the choice to never have kids into an active reality, thus removing a whole lot of unnecessary stress from a person’s life.

It’s not your decision. You may not agree with it, you may not make that same decision yourself, but it’s not yours to question.

What the OP did say was that it would be severely harmful to her mental health to have a baby. And that is harm, serious as any physical harm. I know that personally, I view it as the end of everything I ever wanted my life to be. Can you imagine the kind of depression that would result from seeing the life I’ve wanted to have since I was in Jr. High evaporate in front of me? It’d be a lot like death. I would without hesitation schedule an abortion for the earliest possible second. And if by some freak occurrance the kid was born, I would resent it. I’m not a cruel person and I wouldn’t want to resent it, but I would. And that kid would know it.

So you see, ‘harmful’ is not always a matter of physical harm.

53

IDBB, what you have to do is stop explaining. Explaining yourself results in one of two things :

  1. an interesting exchange of opinions
  2. a frustrating, useless, aggravating argument, where both people get angry and achieve nothing.

There are some people who won’t see, no matter how you explain. Fortunately, most people here seem to take the view of “If you don’t want 'em, don’t have 'em” and don’t judge you for your personal choice. There are quite a few childfree people posting here at SD.

Those that will see and understand, well, you can have interesting chats about being childfree, your views on children, the frustrations of sterilisation unavailability, yada, yada, and have a greater understanding of each other, or perhaps gain a little insight. Those that won’t ever see are better dealt with in another manner.

Depending on your personality, I’d suggest exaggerated laughter at their ridiculousness (I mean, they think they know your mind better than you do ? That’s hilarious!) or complete obtuseness ("I never even thought about kids… damn I’m forgetful!) or plain Ms Manners (“I’m afraid that’s a rather personal question”).

It depends on the person, too. When my mum told me that she thought I’d make a good mum (while we were discussing sterilisation) I took it as a compliment, when my nosy aunt-in-law says it at the upcoming family Christmas party, she’ll get a different response entirely.

As to changing your mind and regrets… The thing that bugs most childfree people about that comment is the selectiveness in which it’s applied. Discounting the occasional freak, if you said that you didn’t like peanut butter and you were never buying it again, nobody would be convinced that you’d change your mind, same as if you said you loved kids and wanted to have three, very few people would tell you that you’d change your mind and actively try and convince you that was true. And if you do change your mind and have regrets, well that’s something you’ll have to cope with. It’s not a good enough reason to not do what you’re 100% sure is the right thing now.

I wish the world was as easy-going as most of the posters here. I bet if the attitudes reflected in this thread (in the majority) were reflected in the same proportion in general society, the childfree, as a whole, would be a lot less defensive.

All the best, IDGG. If you’d like some links to childfree webpages and discussion boards, feel free to e-mail me. (It’s in my profile)

I agree with the poster who said that they know they are childfree the same way they know they are heterosexual. Some childfree ‘just know,’ others arrive at that point by making a decision. I’ve always known, ever since I can remember. Even my mum, who has a huge fear of doing anything ‘permanent’ that’s out of the ordinary, agrees that I’ll be a much happier and less stressed person once I’m sterilised. I pregnancy test every two months, just to be on the safe side (I’m on the Pill) so I won’t find out before it’s too late to abort. I have had nightmares where for some reason I’m seven months pregnant, and I’m giving birth and there’s nothing I can do about it… (I won’t go into how the dream ends).

There are some people who just should never have children, even though they’d probably make decent parents, and to have a doctor, who has spoken to you for all of ten minutes patronisingly tell you you’ll change your mind is quite infuriating. I’m planning my sterilisation now, saving money for the operation, I already have a referral, and am writing lists of reasons why I don’t want children, why sterilisation is the best option for me and answers to the common objections. No matter how long it takes, once the money has been saved, I will get my sterilisation. I have wanted to be sterilised since I knew it was possible (I think I was 13 or 14) but knew it was useless to try earlier.

Og, this is long… I’ll shut up for now.

54

Goo, I understand the pregnancy nightmares. There were a couple of times where I thought I might have been. And it was all I could do to get the OTC test, pee on the little stick, and hope to anything with superpowers or deity status that the little line didn’t turn pink. (Or whatever it did to indicate a rugrat was on the way.) That’s the only time I ever felt the need to pray, and all I wanted was to be Not Pregnant.

I understand that my attitude of hatred toward children is not politically correct, especially because I’m a woman, and I’m supposed to have some sort of maternal instinct. I have no such thing. However, you can put me in a room with a child or children, and I can be polite and civil–even when the kids are running around and yelling and throwing tantrums and whatnot. I will not however, go out of my way to look at kids, be near kids, or have one.

There are so many reasons I can think of for not wanting a child of my own. And I think they’re all valid. And permenant. I could never be responsible for the care and well being of another human. Not on such a long term basis as 18+ years. No way. I don’t have that kind of patience, or courage, or money, or sanity. It would drive me crazy knowing that I’m stuck with the thing. I also have a temper, and I would be afraid of abusing the kid or hitting it. Especially if it were my own, and I couldn’t escape from it. I also have this uncanny kid-sense. Whenever a child sees me, it immediately starts to cry or throw a tantrum or go crazy or whatnot. I don’t think I could live with something that consistantly does that in my presence. I would also be afraid of what I would pass on to my kid, especially a daughter. My maternal grandmother had breast cancer, 2 great aunts died from breast cancer, 1 great aunt died of ovarian cancer, my aunt had breast cancer, my mother had breast cancer. Odds are I’ll get it and odds are any daughters of mine will get it. That’s something that I NEVER want to pass on. I also know that I would much rather spend my life doing other things–traveling, writing, doing charity work, doing actual work, hanging out with friends, and generally being independant and doing my own thing. A kid would take that away, and I would resent that. I would regret it. Part of me would always wonder what else I could have done if little Jezebel hadn’t come along. Part of me would always blame her for that regret. There are more reasons, but this post is getting long.

My point is, I know that I never want kids. I’ve known that since I was old enough to know where babies come from. As a kid, I didn’t like kids because they were too immature. As a young adult, I don’t like kids because they are kids. I’m way to selfish to ever take on that kind of a burden of another human. As I get older and see more kids, and see friends having kids and see how it affects their lifes, I just keep reaffirming that belief that I never want them.

I know that DantheMan’s argument is why someone so young would want something so permenant. I have my reasons. I know them better than anyone else. I know that I want a tubal ligation. I would never regret it. I know how I view kids, and I don’t view kids as a joy that I would be missing out on; I view them as a burden that would cause me to miss the best years of my life. I would regret a kid. I wouldn’t regret a surgury.

I feel I need to add one last statement–by the time I get old and grey and feel that I’m to a point of imparting wisdom on the world (and have lost my marbles to the point where imparting any worldly knowledge on a kid is a good idea), I could always mentor a child, or foster parent or teach. I would never have to have one of my own for that.

55

You’re on the right track. My parents married, then waited FIVE years before they had me, their firstborn. They took that time to travel around Europe, go to Hawaii, basically have all the fun they figured they wouldn’t have the chance to do when they had kids. It made their marriage stronger, and they’re together still. I’d feel sorry for people who marry with “one in the oven”, because they never get that chance to enjoy each other’s company unfettered by the restraints of babies. So enjoy your life, live your life, and scorn those who mock you.

56

It took my wife and I almost ten years before we decided to go off birth control and try to have a kid. It happened first crack out of the box. I used to say that I never wanted kids, and I changed as I got older. Now I love my daughter more than anything, but I would never tell anyone else that they need to have one too. In fact I usually say the opposite, ("…you better make the hell sure you know what you’re getting yourself into… you can’t change your mind once they’re here…your life as you know it will be OVER, I’m not kidding…)

When I used to get the invasive questions, I would tell them what a shitty parent I would make, how I couldn’t keep a fucking houseplant alive, etc. They had to admit those were good points, so they shut up. Other times you just have to tell people to mind their own fucking business.

57

You may have misunderstood me. There is a huge difference between abstaining from having children and having a serious medical procedure that will prevent it from ever happening. This is why we are talking about two different things.

You’re wrong. I can question anything I please. Sorry, but it’s just plain arrogant of you to presume otherwise. At no point did I say I would influence someone’s decision. At no point did I say I would berate them for doing what they felt they had to do. There’s nothing wrong with questioning someone’s decision.

When it comes to mental harm, I’d much prefer to have a medical opinion than my own. Why? Because my own feelings are clouding the issue.

And please, don’t bring abortion into this. This has nothing to do with abortion. If one has an abortion, one can still have children later. If one has an abortion, one can still have another abortion (up to a point). Therefore having an abortion has no effect on later decisions. This procedure we’re discussing absolutely does.

All I’ve been saying is that when we are younger we simply don’t have the experience of knowing whether a decision is the right one. And because this decision cannot be reversed easily, it’s an extremely important one to make.

Again, I’ll say it: If someone made that decision, I’d certainly support it. I’d hope that they thought it through thoroughly, however, and were not doing it simply to relieve stress.

Also, I’ve looked and cannot find where the OP said “it would be severely harmful to her mental health to have a baby” or something similar. Maybe I missed it; could you cite?

The OP had a great, valid point about people bugging her about having kids. She doesn’t want them now, and people keep giving her this smarmy attitude about how she WILL want them. I definitely agree with her that this is a crappy, creepy way to treat other people - it’s like you’re an utter loser if you have no kids. But I don’t think I’d take it to an extreme and vow right there to never, ever have kids - and then have surgery to make sure it never happened.

58

In your opinion, what age or attributes would a woman have to be/show to prove that she has this experience to know what is the right decision for her ?

59

Yeah, what if Mr. Vanderbilt Q. Moneybags came up to you and said “I’ll give you a HUNDRED SKILLION DOLLARS to have a baby RIGHT NOW!” and you’d just had your tubes tied? You’d be fucked in the ass, that’s what.

60

Well, that doesn’t sound like hatred to me. Now, obviously “hatred” is a very subjective word. It’s one I use only for the most extreme of situations, personally - you may be different in that regard. Sounds like you’re tolerant of kids, which is a far cry from open hatred.

This is just a fatalistic attitude, and it’s gotta be unhealthy, although I’m certainly no doctor. You give many reasons why you don’t want kids, and they’re all perfectly valid - but I’d love to know how you can possibly predict the future. I’ve said for years that I don’t want any children, that I’d make a poor father, and so on and so on. But geez, at least I’ve left options open. I haven’t the foggiest idea of what life will be like in five years. Do you? Are you that absolutely, positively certain that you will be in exactly the same situation then as you are now?

You say you don’t have the patience, the courage, the money, or the sanity. Do you really feel you will no longer grow as a person, that this is it? (I don’t think you mentioned your age; if you’re fairly young, there’s no way you’re the same person at 30 as you are at 18, or 22, or 25. Or 40, or 50.) We continue to evolve as individuals right up till the day we die. To presume we’ll never be anything different from what we are now is presumptuous.

Some of your post does seem pretty selfish, though (“doing other things–traveling, writing, doing charity work, doing actual work, hanging out with friends, and generally being independant and doing my own thing. A kid would take that away, and I would resent that”) - but again, this could change.

You cannot possibly with any certainty know now what you will regret later. As others have attested, people have been against having children and then have been very happy to have had them - no regrets. And yes, others have wanted kids and have later regretted having them. The point is, neither predicted the outcome correctly.

If you don’t want kids now, fine. I guess I don’t understand the overwhelming need to shut off that option permanently unless there’s a valid medical reason for doing so, which might be why so many doctors won’t perform the procedure for women under a certain age.