Do NOT assume that because I don't have kids I'm in the wrong!

[catsix]

said dantheman:
There is a huge difference between abstaining from having children and having a serious medical procedure that will prevent it from ever happening.

You don’t understand do you? The latter allows the former to happen. It’s a relatively safe procedure that, if done by a competent doctor is far less damaging to the human body than some of the other things that might become necessary to abstain from having children.

*Sorry, but it’s just plain arrogant of you to presume otherwise. *

But it’s not arrogant of you to tell me that I don’t have enough life experience to decide what I want to do with my life, including have elective surgery?

*And please, don’t bring abortion into this. This has nothing to do with abortion. If one has an abortion, one can still have children later. *

Ah the crux of it. It’s not the fact that it’s surgery that bothers you is it? It’s the fact that there’s no possibility of having children after it. That’s the entire purpose of the procedure, so really, why would a person who never wants kids be concerned about whether or not one could ‘still have children later’? We’re not.

*Therefore having an abortion has no effect on later decisions. This procedure we’re discussing absolutely does. *

Actually, one can never undo an abortion. The aborted fetus will never exist again, even if someone gets pregnant again and has a child. It won’t be the same child that it would have been, so really, abortion is just as permanent. Once one has an abortion, one cannot decide to go back and ‘un abort’.

However, you’re still missing the point that the entire reason that sterilization is so desirable for someone like myself is that it is permanent. I never have to worry about it falling out like an IUD can. Sinking in yet?

*If someone made that decision, I’d certainly support it. *

Telling those of us 20somethings here who have made the decision that we’re too young to do so is your idea of being supportive?

But I don’t think I’d take it to an extreme and vow right there to never, ever have kids - and then have surgery to make sure it never happened.

That’s your choice. Why do you have such a problem with people who choose otherwise?

[dantheman]

*Originally posted by Goo *
**

In your opinion, what age or attributes would a woman have to be/show to prove that she has this experience to know what is the right decision for her ? **

In my opinion, there is no set age; it’s more of a question of experience. And that, of course, is highly subjective.

I can’t define those experiences, especially since I’m not female. I know a lot of this comes down to how a person feels about the decision, as well it should.

[Legomancer]

*Originally posted by Ukulele Ike *
**

Yeah, what if Mr. Vanderbilt Q. Moneybags came up to you and said “I’ll give you a HUNDRED SKILLION DOLLARS to have a baby RIGHT NOW!” and you’d just had your tubes tied? You’d be fucked in the ass, that’s what. **

If Mr. Moneybags is fucking her in the ass, she’s not going to have a baby anyway, even without her tubes tied.

[Essured]

I guess I don’t understand the overwhelming need to shut off that option permanently unless there’s a valid medical reason for doing so

• because I’m sick of taking hormonal birth control,
• because other birth control methods have a failure rate too high for my liking,
• because I don’t want to have to constantly take pregnancy tests, worried all the time,
• because I’d like to be able to make love to my husband without having the nagging voice in the back of my head wondering if this would be the occasion that the birth control would fail,
• because I don’t want to worry about falling pregnant and being unable to access abortion services,
• because I don’t want to have the ongoing expense or hassle of birth control, or cost of abortion when there’s a perfectly good, once-off, alternative (sterilisation),
• because it isn’t a major surgical procedure anymore,
• because it’s my body, and that’s how I want it to be, sterile.
• because, though you may not believe it, I truly know who I am and what I want,
• because even if I do change my mind (though pigs will be flying in an icy cold hell before that happens) I can always adopt, or take part in foster programs, or do one of a million other things to have children share my life.

I hope some of those reasons help you understand the desire to be sterilised when you are 100% sure that you wish to always remain without children. If not, feel free to ask more questions. I need the practice anyway, because I’m sure to face objections when I arrange for the final consult.

On preview, I see your response to my question about age/experience. Thank you, I agree with you. I feel the same about bringing a child into the world. I know that being sterilised is the right thing for me, and I guess I’m a little sick of other people being sure I’m making a mistake, simply because it’s a statistically unusual choice.

[dantheman]

*Originally posted by catsix *
**

You don’t understand do you? The latter allows the former to happen. It’s a relatively safe procedure that, if done by a competent doctor is far less damaging to the human body than some of the other things that might become necessary to abstain from having children. **

You’re the one not understanding, I’m afraid. The safeness of the procedure is irrelevant - it’s the irreversibility of it that I’m talking about. I’ve asked a few times for someone to correct me on this; can anyone? I’ll assume it’s irreversible otherwise.

What exactly is “necessary” to abstain from having children? All you have to do is decide not to have sex. How is this decision harmful to the human body?

But it’s not arrogant of you to tell me that I don’t have enough life experience to decide what I want to do with my life, including have elective surgery?

And where did I say that? Conventional wisdom indicates that the younger one is, the less experience one has. This is not going to be true from person to person.

At no point did I tell you such a decision would be wrong. I’ve only said I questioned it. Don’t be so defensive about it.

Ah the crux of it. It’s not the fact that it’s surgery that bothers you is it? It’s the fact that there’s no possibility of having children after it. That’s the entire purpose of the procedure, so really, why would a person who never wants kids be concerned about whether or not one could ‘still have children later’? We’re not.

Wrong again. The crux - and I’ll repeat this, since you’re only reading what you want to read - is that it’s a decision to have an irreversible procedure at a very early age. I’ve stated that my opinion is that one should have more experience in life before making such an irreversible decision.

Actually, one can never undo an abortion. The aborted fetus will never exist again, even if someone gets pregnant again and has a child. It won’t be the same child that it would have been, so really, abortion is just as permanent. Once one has an abortion, one cannot decide to go back and ‘un abort’.

Good to know. Why are you telling me this? The point is that it having one has zero effect on the woman’s ability to bear children later. This makes it irrelevant to this discussion.

However, you’re still missing the point that the entire reason that sterilization is so desirable for someone like myself is that it is permanent. I never have to worry about it falling out like an IUD can. Sinking in yet?

And you continue to ignore my points.

I’ll say this for about the zillionth time in this thread: I am not condemning your decision to sterilize yourself. Is THAT sinking in? What part of this are you not grasping? The point is NOT simply that it’s permanent - at NO time did you see me rail against the procedure for ALL women at ALL times. The point is that it’s a permanent procedure being decided upon at an early age. THAT is the issue here.

Telling those of us 20somethings here who have made the decision that we’re too young to do so is your idea of being supportive? That’s your choice. Why do you have such a problem with people who choose otherwise?

I don’t. Please read the thread.

You ignored nearly everything I said and picked out a few things to respond to.

Look, this is a purely subjective issue. Why are you getting your dander up? We basically agree on most points of it. I’m just saying that I don’t feel most young people have the life experience necessary to make such a permanent decision. There is nothing wrong with this opinion.

[blanx]

IANAD, but getting tubes tied is not irreversible surgery. Reversing it is not easy, but is certainly possible.

Actually, what’s perfectly scary is sometimes, even when it’s done properly, it can grow back, and a person can be fertile without knowing it.

[catsix]

said dantheman:
*What exactly is “necessary” to abstain from having children? All you have to do is decide not to have sex. *

For the next thirty or so years?

Because that’s exactly what your ‘All you have to do is decide not to have sex’ means to me, dan.

It means that since I want to abstain from having children forever, I should just not have sex for the next thirty-odd years - which is about how long it will be until I hit menopause. If I’m lucky I’ll be in my mid-fifties and not like my aunt who didn’t hit menopause until she was in her sixties.

That’s a lot more extreme than a minor elective surgery.

[dantheman]

Goo, thanks. Those certainly seem like great reasons to me, although you surely don’t need my validation. If those are all your reasons, then more power to you.

Of course, there’s an added wrinkle here. You’re married, so presumably you’ve discussed this with your husband. I think that’s wonderful - what if you didn’t? What if you decided to have them tied but asked no one else their feelings on the subject? I’m saying it’s not a decision to be made lightly, and it seems to me you’re not making it lightly at all.

[dantheman]

*Originally posted by blanx *
**IANAD, but getting tubes tied is not irreversible surgery. Reversing it is not easy, but is certainly possible.

Actually, what’s perfectly scary is sometimes, even when it’s done properly, it can grow back, and a person can be fertile without knowing it. **

Thanks, blanx; I’d been wondering about that.

This tells me that if someone makes this decision at a young age and then later regrets it to the point of wishing to have children, she can.

[dantheman]

*Originally posted by catsix *
**

For the next thirty or so years?

Because that’s exactly what your ‘All you have to do is decide not to have sex’ means to me, dan.

It means that since I want to abstain from having children forever, I should just not have sex for the next thirty-odd years - which is about how long it will be until I hit menopause. If I’m lucky I’ll be in my mid-fifties and not like my aunt who didn’t hit menopause until she was in her sixties.

That’s a lot more extreme than a minor elective surgery. **

But not dangerous to the body, as you stated. Would you like to retract that statement now?

Now that blanx has thoughtfully provided the fact about a reversible process, it seems to me that if you do decide to do this, at least sometime down the road there’s the possibility that you could change your mind and reverse it.

For those of you who are in a situation where you really, really think you don’t want to have kids ever, I feel your pain. I’m sorry you’re in that position. If you believe that you would be best served with your tubes tied, I applaud your decision, although I would hope you’d discuss it with someone other than your doctor (who might be reluctant to do it for reasons other than medical, such as liability). And in a perfect world, one would have this abstract life experience of which I speak under one’s belt before making this decision.

But the fact is, it’s your decision. I’ve never said it would be the wrong one; it could well be the perfect one.

And the fact that it’s reversible gives you an out. Say 10 years from now your life is wonderful - you’re married, you love other people’s kids, and suddenly you have that nagging ol’ biological clock. Now you can change your mind - sure, it’s not a simple procedure, but it can be done.

And if it gives you piece of mind, then that’s a huge plus in my book.

Good luck to all of you.

[astro]

Well to each her own but I will relate a conversation my cousin and her mother had about 15 years ago on this very issue.

My 22 year old cousin was determined get a sterilization procedure mainly because she was not overly fond of kids and was tired of birth control, and had already had two abortions in college because of unwanted pregnancies.

Her mother and she are both strong willed women and went back and forth with her mother citing the “You’re too young to make such a final decision, maybe someday you’ll meet a nice man and want kids etc. etc.” and her daughter citing the “It’s my life and how dare you presume to tell me that I don’t know my own mind and what I will or will not want in the future etc. etc.”.

At that point her mother turned to her and said “Times change, people change and circumstances change. This isn’t a feminist issue or a self determination issue. The fact is that women often change their attitudes about kids 180 degrees when they meet the man of their dreams and want to have kids with him. It’s not politically correct, but it happens. It happened to me and it may or may not happen to you but 22 is way too young to make such a final decision.”

So she waited (grudgingly) and she met Mr. Right at age 29 and they have two beautiful children who she loves to pieces and they seem to be a very happy family. Would she have been happier if she was childfree? Who knows. It’s a proceed with caution light.

[catsix]

What pain, dan?

The only ‘pain’ I feel is that of people saying things like ‘Oh, it’s reversible, so that when the wonderful correct life of marriage and wanting babies comes along in ten years, you can fix this hideous mistake.’

And astro, I broke up with the guy I loved more than anything in the world because he wanted kids and I didn’t.

Six years later, I still love the guy, I still miss the guy, and I still hate that the relationship ended. But I don’t regret it. He wasn’t Mr. Right because Mr. Right is someone who doesn’t want kids.

The age of majority in the United States is 18 concerning medical and legal decisions. I’m past that age, and I’m past 21, and the only age limit I have to look at now is 67, which is the current minimum age for social security full benefits for people born after the 1940s.

When will my life belong to me?

[80sHairMetalMaven]

Goo…you are wise. Thank you so much for your wisdom. It is much needed sometimes. Currently hubby and I are not doing ANYTHING to prevent pregnancy,but then again…we haven’t been doing anything to prevent pregnancy for the last 3 years and 9 months of our marriage. I was on The Pill for three months at the very beginning of our marriage and it drove me insane. I was either yelling and screaming at him for no reason (such as…socks on the floor,something I didn’t really care about) or crying for no reason (eg…I burned a piece of toast). This is why I believe I am infertile (or he is). If I don’t have kids…it won’t be any big loss to me. I know that having had no good example of motherhood to go by(my own mother was clinically depressed without any meds during most of my childhood.I stopped counting suicide attempts when it got to 50),I would most likely mess up and be a horrible parent. I would love to get my tubes tied but again…there are problems. Insurance might not pay for it. Dr’s won’t allow it because of my age (I just turned 24). It seems the whole WORLD is against me not having kids. Urgh…at least I have SD for support and someplace to go with my misery.

IDBB
(who chose that nick because I really do like the bad boys…;))

[dantheman]

When I said “I feel your pain,” I was not only mimicking our ex-president, I was saying I empathize with you. Is this OK with you?

[catsix]

But saying things about how it’s reassuring that sterilization is reversible and ‘just don’t have sex’ and writing your entire post as if what I said is ‘right now I don’t want kids and that might change later’ proves that you don’t comprehend much less empathize with what I’m talking about.

There is no pain, dan.

There is only the frustration of having doors slammed in my face by people to tell me that surgery is ‘extreme’ and that I’m too young to make a decision I might regret later. There is the frustration of being told ‘because you think you don’t want to ever have kids’ when it’s not that I think that, I know that much like I know I’m sexually attracted to men.

Get it yet?

[Scarlett67]

*Originally posted by dantheman *
For those of you who are in a situation where you really, really think you don’t want to have kids ever, I feel your pain.

You’ve totally missed the point. WE’RE NOT IN PAIN over this decision. It’s our personal preference!! It’s not something to “feel sorry for.” People who get themselves sterilized don’t want “an out.” That’s the whole point of the surgery. The irreversibility argument is irrelevant, IMO. (Sometimes it can’t be done!) And I’m not happy about the idea that what I choose to do with my body is a decision that I should hold off on until I get the opinion of some man.

People seem to think that being parents and having children is so wonderful, a blessing, a beautiful life experience, they didn’t want kids but now that they have one they love it to pieces, etc. etc. That’s GREAT for them. But for anyone to presume that I might want what THEY think is so wonderful at some future time, when I’m dead against it right now, is intrusive, rude, and a whole bunch of other things. We love our dogs to pieces, etc., but I would never dream of telling someone who didn’t like dogs that they might change their minds later, or that they should leave themselves an “out” in case they decided later in their life that they wanted one.

I’m wonderfully happy with my life right now – there are many things in it that give me joy. Maybe if I’d taken a different route in my life, I’d have kids and all this joy that people think they bring. Or maybe I’d have a career I haven’t pursued in this life, one that would bring me the same or greater joy. Or maybe I could have met a more perfect person to share my life (but I doubt it ).When I was born, I had a million possible choices, and this is the one I went with. I’m happy with it. What a waste of time and energy to worry about whether some unknown factor might have made me a different kind of happy. (And anyone who is UNhappy with their life and thinks that having kids is a good way to fix it is having them is opening a whole 'nother can of worms.)

There are a lot of things that other people choose to do with their own lives that I don’t understand and would not choose for myself. (Have you seen the open marriage thread?) But I CAN understand that it works for them, if not for me. There are six million of us on this planet – we can’t ALL want the same things.

(On preview, another good reply, catsix! and dan, it sure doesn’t feel like empathy when you keep telling us that maybe we don’t know our own minds.)

[dantheman]

*Originally posted by catsix *
**But saying things about how it’s reassuring that sterilization is reversible and ‘just don’t have sex’ and writing your entire post as if what I said is ‘right now I don’t want kids and that might change later’ proves that you don’t comprehend much less empathize with what I’m talking about.

There is no pain, dan.

There is only the frustration of having doors slammed in my face by people to tell me that surgery is ‘extreme’ and that I’m too young to make a decision I might regret later. There is the frustration of being told ‘because you think you don’t want to ever have kids’ when it’s not that I think that, I know that much like I know I’m sexually attracted to men.

Get it yet? **

What exactly is your problem? I can’t spell this out for you any more plainly. I’ll try again anyway.
I am not telling you not to make this decision. I am not telling you that you’re a lesser person for not having children.

I guess for you, frustration is painless. I’m glad you feel that way; I suspect most people don’t. Frustration can be extremely painful.

If there’s no pain… THEN WHY THE HELL ARE YOU BITCHING ABOUT IT IN HERE?

Jesus freaking Christ. You have got to be kidding me. You go on and on about how some people treat you like shit because they feel you should be having kids, and I am the bad guy because I feel sorry that you’re treated that way?

Get over yourself. If you don’t want the empathy, don’t worry. You won’t get it.

I said I respected your decision. Not good enough for you.

I said I had wished people didn’t treat you like that. Not good enough for you.

What do you want? Tell me. I’d love to know.

As I have said throughout this thread, I have ZERO problem with you doing this. Why are you still complaining about it?

For crying out loud, the “feel your pain” comment has NOTHING to do with the issue here. Quit fucking harping on it.

[catsix]

Thank you, Scarlett, and in addition to what you said here:

*When I was born, I had a million possible choices, and this is the one I went with. I’m happy with it. *

I get the distinct impression that you would also say ‘And if I regret it, that’s for me to live with.’ Because I feel I can identify with what you wrote there.

Of the infinite possibilities that lay before me the day I entered this world, this is the path I have walked down. Wherever I arrive, I can thank or blame only myself.

[catsix]

Because some of the shit treatment is exactly the kind of stuff you’re saying, dan.

It’s the stuff where you raise issue with making a permanent decision at what you arbitrarily term too young an age. It’s that you seem so arrogant when you say that it’s got to be a relief to us to know that a tubal ligation is possible reversible, as if that’s something someone who never ever wants children would care about.

It’s that you talk about all these ‘painful’ things as if it must be so miserable a life to not want children.

[dantheman]

*Originally posted by Scarlett67 *
You’ve totally missed the point. WE’RE NOT IN PAIN over this decision. It’s our personal preference!! It’s not something to “feel sorry for.”

Well excuse the fuck out of me, Scarlett. How DARE I. Well, don’t worry. I’ll never fucking feel sorry for you. OK? I’ll NEVER feel that you’ve been wronged. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.

People who get themselves sterilized don’t want “an out.” That’s the whole point of the surgery.

No SHIT! You don’t say. Good GOD.

I am NOT saying that whoever is getting the sterilization is thinking, “Ok, but at least I can reverse it later.” I am not not not not not saying this. You misunderstood. I am saying that it’s GOOD that it’s reversible in case they do change their minds later on. Are you saying this NEVER fucking happens?

The irreversibility argument is irrelevant, IMO. (Sometimes it can’t be done!) And I’m not happy about the idea that what I choose to do with my body is a decision that I should hold off on until I get the opinion of some man.

Well, sometimes it can’t, sometimes it can. So fucking what? If it can be done, and they DO want it reversed later, they can. Why is this an issue with you?

Some man, indeed. So you’d have no fucking problem getting your tubes tied without even telling your husband? I’m extremely grateful not to be in his shoes if this is the case, as it would be plain you have no trust at all.

People seem to think that being parents and having children is so wonderful, a blessing, a beautiful life experience, they didn’t want kids but now that they have one they love it to pieces, etc. etc. That’s GREAT for them. But for anyone to presume that I might want what THEY think is so wonderful at some future time, when I’m dead against it right now, is intrusive, rude, and a whole bunch of other things.

I’ve lost track of how many times in this thread I’ve said I am NOT presuming anything. If the woman wants that, fine. Can we drop this issue already? How many times in the same thread do I need to repeat that I agreed with the OP?

We love our dogs to pieces, etc., but I would never dream of telling someone who didn’t like dogs that they might change their minds later, or that they should leave themselves an “out” in case they decided later in their life that they wanted one.

Bad analogy. You can always put the dog up for adoption, sell it, give it away, whatever. How is this the same as having your tubes tied?

I’m wonderfully happy with my life right now – there are many things in it that give me joy. Maybe if I’d taken a different route in my life, I’d have kids and all this joy that people think they bring. Or maybe I’d have a career I haven’t pursued in this life, one that would bring me the same or greater joy. Or maybe I could have met a more perfect person to share my life (but I doubt it ).When I was born, I had a million possible choices, and this is the one I went with. I’m happy with it. What a waste of time and energy to worry about whether some unknown factor might have made me a different kind of happy. (And anyone who is UNhappy with their life and thinks that having kids is a good way to fix it is having them is opening a whole 'nother can of worms.)

You can’t have it both ways. You say your life is great now. What if you had made a decision when you were much younger that would have negated things that make you happy now? To go back to my original point, I said that you cannot possibly know how your life will be in ten years. You just can’t. Are you telling me that your life is exactly the same now as it was then?

(On preview, another good reply, catsix! and dan, it sure doesn’t feel like empathy when you keep telling us that maybe we don’t know our own minds.)

I never said that, Scarlett. If you feel I did, please show me where.