Calling the OP unsympathetic is bullshit, and a lot of you are misrepresenting the situation. The guy has taken his wife’s side, and has cut his mother out of his life on multiple occasions. You can argue that he needs to cut her out completely, but that’s essentially what he’s thinking about doing. Severing ties with a loved one is often a very difficult thing to do, and some of you should cut the OP a little slack.
I dunno, I think even a small child would appreciate the anti-bully message of:
“Grandma doesn’t like your mommy, and she has a hard time saying nice things. We don’t visit grandma because she is a bully to Mommy. When grandma shows us she is ready to play nice, we will go visit at once. If you like, you can send grandma letters or paint her pictures to let her know you are thinking of her. We can also record messages or videos for her and send them over the phone if you want.”
I got that explanation as a child (minus the technology/communication parts) for an uncle who was an abusive bastard to his family, and I never once thought it was a bad thing that I didn’t have a relationship with him. He is/was the ONLY relative on both sides of my enormous interrelated and overinvolved family that we didn’t ever visit. We saw him at reunions, and I knew to stay away.
There is a horrible tendency to not set boundaries and put up with truly awful shit from people just because they are related to you.
If the OP was walking down the street and a random stranger walked by and said that his wife was an ugly hateful evil bitch, he’d want to punch the bastard’s face in.
Why does his mom get a pass because she spawned him? The more people learn not to tolerate shit from their families, the sooner families will be a lot less dysfunctional, and the healthier the resulting people will be. Especially the little girl - what a powerful message to hear that your family doesn’t put up with mean people, regardless of who they are!
And I mean, is that really what you want your little girl to learn? That you put up with shit from your family just because they’re family? Family is allowed to do things I wouldn’t let a friend get away with because they’re blood. No way, I won’t put up with it. No friend would remain my friend after badmouthing my life partner for thirteen years.
Would your mother understand it if you put things in terms of her actions being disrespectful to you? Lots of people (like me) marry outside their culture with no ill effects.
If it were me I’d tell her that you would be happy to visit, but you will be visiting as a complete family. If that is unacceptable to her, if she cannot treat your family with respect, all members of it, then she has only herself to blame for not seeing her grandchild. Really, 13 years is a long time for her to be hoping you will see the light, and it is time for her to face reality. My mother-in-law was clearly a bit dubious about me (I wasn’t a Christian, I was kind of odd, and my wife and I had an odd pre-marriage relationship) but though she told my wife before our wedding that she could still back out, she was never anything but nice and our relationship got better and better through the years. She’d have said that she was just brought up right, and any other course would be rude and impolite.
But that’s not an accurate answer to the question, is it? It’s not that Mommy hates Granny and is being an asshole…it’s that Granny hates Mommy and has continuously been an asshole for 13 fucking years. It’s not “if you don’t like me, you can’t play with my toys,” it’s “if you can’t play nice, you can’t play with me or my toys.” And really, it’s unreasonable to expect someone to let you play with their toys when you’re all the time calling them names and shoving them off the swings.
Out of curiousity, Orville, do you know what your mother’s relationship was (is?) like with her own MIL? I ask because from how you describe her, I have to imagine that if anyone, including her MIL, treated her the way she treats your wife, and then wanted you and your father to come and have a friendly visit, her response would be along the lines of: “Over my dead body!” I can’t believe she would stand for her husband being friendly to (and raising *you *to love and respect) someone who was so hateful to her, even if it were his own mother.
On the other hand, maybe that’s exactly what she had to put up with, and now feels it’s finally her turn to be the queen bee, and hates your wife for not playing the submissive role she had to play.
I guess my point is that, either way, I’d say to her that if she feels you should respect her above all others (including your own wife) because she’s Mom, then the same applies to her granddaughter. She should also respect her own mother above all others, and that means not allowing anyone to treat her badly, including Grandma. And in my opinion, if Orville and his daughter visit and, as Sparky so perfectly put it, play “let’s pretend Mommy doesn’t exist”, they’re tacitly approving of Grandma’s bad behavior. Now, if she agrees to be civil, and does so, and Orville’s wife is welcome to visit and freely *chooses *to opt out, that’s fine. But if she can’t be minimally civil to her daughter-in-law for even a short visit, then no, she doesn’t deserve to see her granddaughter.
The point was that the child is not merely a possession of the mother so why does her hurt feelings get to dictate the terms of the relationship between the child and her grandmother?
So the bottom line to most of the opinions here is even if grandma doesn’t say a word against the child’s mom, she should not be permitted to have a relationship with her own grandchild simply because she doesn’t get along with the child’s mother?
This simply amazes me. My daughter loves her Grandma Annie who treats her like a little princess and makes the most of their visits together. Even though the woman is mean and nasty towards me, she has never been anything but kind to my child and I feel like my daughter would be the loser if I forbid the relationship. Which, by the way, I would feel selfish to do. Just because I can’t get along with the woman, why should my husband and our child miss out on having a person who loves them both very much in their lives? It seems like the wife is permitted to punish her MIL and her own husband because MIL can’t seem to get along with her. Seems very childish to me.
(bolding mine)
But when has the grandma in question ever shown that she’d be willing to stop saying bad things about this child’s mom? She’s been put on notice multiple times, shut out of her son’s life multiple times, and continues to put down her son’s wife. Not cool. When challenged on her behavior, she’s defended her ‘right’ to be as nasty to her daughter-in-law as she feels like being.
And another point: this child is 20 months old. The grandmother has had more than two years to be aware of having a grandchild (I’m including part of the pregnancy as mental adjustment time for her) – has it changed her behavior at all? Has she shown any desire to be a part of her grandchild’s life, and made any sign of realizing that having a relationship with her grandchild when she’s so openly derogatory towards the child’s mother is at least nervy?
I was very sorry to read your story, JacobSwan. If it means anything, a random person on the internet thinks your wife is not doing right by you.
Here’s another.
Cheers you two.
She’s not totally evil and I can understand part of why she is the way she is.
Her parents were super critical to her for most of her life and it was only when we had our first child that they accepted her as an adult (she was 27 by this time!)
It’s taken her so long to form a decent relationship with them that she doesn’t want to risk it, not even for me.
But I agree with what an earlier poster said about relationship triangle dynamics. It’s no coincidence that things got better with her and her parents about the same time her parents switched from being mildly rude to being openly abusive towards me. They must have a certain amount of spite that needs to be directed at someone to make them happy. I’m glad for her that she’s no longer getting it, but why do I have to get it instead?
My parents were super critical to me for most of my life, too. I dealt with it by cleaving entirely to the man who was supportive and respectful.
No one is saying she’s evil…it’s just not right.
ETA: But you know, in an adult, mature relationship, when one person says “This really hurts me” it’s the other person’s job to try to understand, not go “You’re too sensitive and I don’t understand you.” How is that healthy at all? Your wife doesn’t seem to care about your hurt feelings at all and you have no excuse like “That’s just what they’re like where I’m from” like your parents. Ptooey.
My husband’s parents were like that, and they got worse the further he got from them. He hasn’t spoken to them in years.
We’re both close to my family, but they don’t abuse and threaten him. Funny how that works.
The wife’s hurt feelings don’t dictate anything. The best interests of the child dictate everything. It could be – and probably would be – damaging to a child to learn that it’s okay to :
• Treat your own family members with disrespect
• Not set boundaries; not know how to or how to enforce them
•Roll over and take it if a family member wants to mistreat you, because you don’t want to hurt their feelings.
Children learn about how to be in relationships by being in them and by observing the relationships around them. AFAIC, the issue of the wife’s feelings are between husband and wife. Sounds to me like she’s more hurt that she hasn’t been backed up more than she is that her MIL doesn’t like her.
It’s not about punishing the grandmother. That’s an immature and petty way to look at it, IMO. It’s more about teaching people how to treat us. You do that by rewarding positive behavior (stick around, visit when Gramma treats others with respect) vs. not reinforcing negative behavior (leave as soon as Gramma starts badmouthing mommy).
On another message board, which is a support group board, I posted a similar story to see if anyone there had been through this (because the support group deals with people leaving a specific, unique culture so there are a lot of “mixed” marriages over there). One person cited his parents: back in the 40s, his dad’s parents hated his mom. His dad ignored the problem, however, and allowed the family to badmouth his wife in front of them & the kids for years. Even after the wife died, some cousins went up to her son and started talking shit about her.
Bottom line: he said the major consequence was that he lost all respect for his father because his father never stood up for his mother and never acknowledged how hurt she was by being rejected by basically, his entire family. As soon as the offending grandparent died, the poster who told me this story said he and his siblings never had anything to do with anyone on that side of the family at all.
This sort of thing can affect families for generations unless someone sets boundaries and starts clear, two-way communication. If the wife was behaving in some way that caused all this resentment then I’d suggest seeking feedback from the family with the idea of building a bridge over the gap in communication. but it sounds like the OP’s Mama just doesn’t like her DIL because she’s different. There’s nothing the OP’s DW can do about that.
Look, if I had children, I sincerely doubt I would allow them to spend much time with my dad and stepmom, and certainly not unsupervised by me. My dad has a mean sense of humor, mistreats and abuses animals, and pouts like a child if you call him out on his bad behavior. I would never want him to influence any child of mine, oh hell no.
What some people seem to not be grokking in this thread is that sometimes, family members are truly toxic. If you’ve already spent years and years talking, negotiating, setting boundaries, and doing everything everybody can do to build a bridge and the person is still mistreating the wife, then it’s time to cut your losses and show your children what healthy relationships look like. So they can grow up big and strong to have healthy, happy relationships of their own. That’s why we want to protect the child from her grandmother.
Before I got together with my SO I had no concept that a family could be supportive and loving. In our early years together I used to be very jealous of his time with his family because I was convinced they were just lying in wait to hurt him, like my famil.
It took me years before I realized a family could be a good thing, and I am never going to trust family fully. I just can’t do it. But his mom is a wonderful person, and I am grateful to her every time we go to see them.
It occurs to me that I am a child rather like Dogzilla speaks of - permanently damaged by my toxic family. It’s the OP’s responsibility to protect the child.
I think it’s wonderful that your MIL can be so sweet to your daughter and husband, and terribly sad that she cannot at least be civil to you.
It’s the dichotomy that is the problem. She’s not just a mean MIL, nor is she just a loving grandma; she’s always both things at the same time. They’re not just having lunch with Grandma Annie, they’re also having lunch with a woman who has verbally attacked their wife and mother. So while it’s certainly generous of you not to prevent them from seeing her, I have a hard time understanding why they would want to.
I, too, feel terrible for JacobSwan. And you’re right, Foxy40 - it’s entirely about how his wife treats him, and has nothing to do with his inlaws. But I sort of feel the same about your situation; it’s great that your husband doesn’t allow his mother to badmouth you, but in my opinion, his even fostering a relationship with someone who is unrepentantly hateful to you is a betrayal in its own way. If you and MIL had simply come to mutual agreement that you don’t like each other, and could visit and be civil, but choose to not *have *to, then that’s a completely different story. But that’s not what’s happening in the OP.
I actually feel a little bad about my husband because I was the opposite. Because of my experiences having a “normal” family, I didn’t realize how bad my husband’s was for a long time. He probably kept contact with them longer than he should have because I kept convincing him to keep trying. I just assumed it was a misunderstanding that could be worked out, until it got to the point that even I realized that it was exactly the way he said it was. It was eye-opening, to say the least.
At least you realized it! Actually, I had almost a similar situation with most of my friends - but my SO got it right away. People say things like “They’re your parents, they mean the best for you” when it’s just not true. Sometimes parents don’t mean the best for you. They don’t mean the worst for you, either. They just got stuck with you. And now they think they own you.
I just don’t believe it when people say “Oh, the kid won’t even remember”. Sure, sometimes if the kid has a wonderfully loving family and supportive parents, they probably will ignore one member of the family…but not always. I remember reading Anne of Green Gables, and the woman who took in Anne remembers at one point that one of her aunts had said about her “it’s a pity she’s such a homely little child,” and musing that the sting hadn’t gone away until she was every inch of fifty.
That comment resonated with me incredibly deeply and still does. You remember it, when people that are supposed to be your family think you are less than. You remember it for your whole life, and when people say things like “They’re your family and they mean well” you begin to seriously doubt yourself - because, after all, someone close to you always doubted you, from the start.
It’s called Toxic Parents. And the OP needs to protect his baby girl from his own toxic mother.
The grandmother in the situation hasn’t been able to prove to be mature enough to be influencing young children’s opinions of their parents, or to behave in a civil manner regarding her daughter-in-law. It’s not fair for mom to be exiled from family stuff, and grandparents do not get rights to their grandchildren simply by existing. Just because you’re willing to put up with a bad situation for you doesn’t mean that all grandchildren benefit from being put in the situation where Mom and Grandma don’t get along because Grandma’s a bully.
This is a good question, and one I’ve had. IMO, no person has an inherent right to being in your life, blood relative or not. They surrender that right once they start being abusive to you or your loved ones.
Does your MIL pick on you whenever you see her? Tell you that you’re not worthy of being part of the family? Does she criticize you multiple times during a visit, especially in front of your daughter? If not, then this may be part of why you’re okay with the grandmother in question having visitation. Mom shouldn’t have to put up with verbal abuse just because Grandma is too childish, selfish and mean to behave herself when it comes to Mom.
As for missing out on that grandparent-grandchild relationship, it’s not the end of the world. Three out of four of my grandparents were dead by the time I was five, and I didn’t see my remaining grandfather very often due to distance; I turned out just fine, and still had a meaningful relationship with the remaining grandparent. When Grandma can behave like an adult, she should be treated like an adult. Until then, her “punishment” for behaving childishly is to be treated like a child who won’t play nice with others.
I also think your wife isn’t doing right by you. Spouses are supposed to be there for each other, to listen and sympathize and communicate with each other in a way that doesn’t just dismiss the other person’s feelings. She may not think her parents are awful, but the fact that she’s so adamant about her parents being innocent of any wrongdoing is not good.
I, too have been the spouse (that’s my ex) and the daughter.
My ex-husband’s mother’s attitude towards me was one of the many things wrong with our marriage.
But on the daughter front, I could never feel much affection for a women who held my mother in such contempt and bullied her. I agree that not having a grandparent-grandchild relationship is not the end of the world. And if your parents are physically and emotionally distant to start with, this really isn’t going to be a great relationship. My current father in law is someone we see a few times a year, physically he is a few hours away, emotionally - he really doesn’t want to be too involved.