My 5 year old son, Dominic, came back from a 2 week visit with my mom asking questions like “did God make the world?” and “did God make me?”
GRRR.
She KNOWS we’re not raising him Christian and this just pissed me off like you would not believe. How dare she try to teach my son her religion against our wishes?? We’ve made it VERY clear to her that her religion is not what we want for him!
:::steamed:::
If I were you, I’d remind your mom who is in charge of raising this kid.
Drop subtle hints that if this kind of thing continues, the frequency of visits would decrease dramatically, perhaps to zero.
Visits are pretty rare as it is… she lives 2300 miles away. This visit was unavoidable though, she was watching him while we spent 2 1/2 weeks in Europe…
But yeah, I’ve talked to her about it. I’ve yelled at her about it. The last time was when we were in Tucson at her house and she started quizzing him about some Bible story that she’d told him earlier. I told her to stop it, then told my son “remember, all religions are just different ways of saying the same thing. All gods are just the same god” and my mom said “I don’t want to hear that kind of talk in my house!”
sigh
I really don’t want to cut off my mom. I grew up in an emotionally abusive and neglectful home and it’s only been in the last several years that I’ve had any kind of relationship at all with my mom… which is pretty much the only thing I ever wanted for the first 18 years of my life.
It sounds like your relationship with your mom is pretty complicated, but I suspect the same could be said for the majority of us Dopers, myself included.
My dad’s current wife (not my mom) once said that whenever someone took the time to write her a letter about anything, she always paid attention to it. She said the fact that the person took the time to write everything out made her acknowledge how important the issues in that letter were to the author. I’ve never forgotten that.
If you haven’t already, why don’t you try writing your mom a letter? Get everything out on the page. Let her know in writing that she is overstepping her bounds, that you are the ultimate authority when it comes to the upbringing of your son, and that there will be consequences if this kind of thing does not stop. Perhaps one consequence would be that your son may not visit as often until he is old enough to be resistant to such tactics.
You don’t want to cut off your mom, and you don’t want your son to exposed to influences that you find unacceptable. Let your mom know that these two desires should not have to be mutually exclusive, but that it is the direction things are heading.
Of course, any of this advice can be freely disregarded. I’m only offering advice that’s coming to this sleep-addled brain that has been deprived of caffeine for nearly 9 hours.
Well the thing is that typically, she visits us. (It’s much cheaper for her to fly out here than for the three of us to fly out there, and she usually makes her visits coincide with her legal conferences and such in DC) She visits once or twice a year. Not much visiting time to work with for threats of ‘reductions’ yanno?
When she comes into town, she doesn’t exactly force her way physically into your house, right? Then it’s your choice to let her into your home. She obviously needs to understand that your home is your castle, and you are the queen. It’s your rules, or she’ll have to find some other place to stay while in town.
If that sounds harsh, please understand where I’m coming from. My own mom had a very difficult time in the last several years, and for the last three or four of those years, she was handling her life in a way that I strongly disapproved of. One example was that she was frequently asking to borrow money from me, since she never seemed to grasp the concept of managing her own personal finances. This was during the time that I was your stereotypical starving college student and didn’t have much money to spare. Despite having a very limited budget, I did loan her money from time to time, but when I figured out that getting that money back was harder than hell, and loaning money to her in the first place was only a band-aid to the situation and not a solution, I told her that I was no longer going to loan her money. Ever. Period.
She tested me on this a couple of more times, and when she figured out I wasn’t bluffing, she stopped asking.
Eventually the situation was getting so out of hand that my brother and I had to lay down a few ultimatums last spring. We had to do this in order to prevent the financial destruction of other individuals who were diverting a significant portion of their resources to subsidizing my mom’s decision not to be responsible for her own finances. By that time, Mom was pretty aware of the idea that we didn’t bluff and we didn’t fuck around with making empty statements. We were firm and yet non-confrontational. We never yelled during that conversation, and did our level best to keep a cool head at all times.
Lo and behold, her life has improved dramatically since. She’s made more progress in the last six months than in all of the last four or five years combined. She’s truly on her way to getting her life back together, and I’m proud of her for that.
But I don’t think it would have happened if it wasn’t for my brother and I being absolutely firm with her. An outsider might have seen us as being unduly harsh…we saw it as our last ditch effort to help someone (and indirectly help the finances of some other individuals that were being adversely affected by this situation). We set down some ground rules, identified the consequences, and made it absolutely clear that we weren’t fucking kidding. She believed us, because we backed up our words with actions in the past.
So. Before she comes to visit again, lay down the rules in writing. Be firm, but not hostile. Be prepared to stick to whatever consequences may happen, no matter what. It’s your son, after all, not hers.
Case in point:
Michaela (age 5) just returned from a two-week visit with my sister and her husband and kids. Said sister and family are Southern Baptists, now, after a Roman Caqtholic upbringing, and she buys the whole bit. She’s got the ><TRUTH> fish eating the ><DARWIN> fish on the back window of her minivan, the home-schooling texts at the ready (her oldest son is also 5), and she
…L…L
won’t allow the Harry Potter books into the house (I really hope my Darwin fish works as well in the final posting as it did in Preview).
The last time she had Michaela, she introduced her to Veggie-Tales. This time, she wanted to bring her to Vacation Bible School. I said okay, with the stipulation that the bible stories not be given any more weight (in terms of journalistic accuracy) than Grimm’s Fairy Tales. A literary exercise, if you will. Still, I thought I would need to prepare Michaela to not just swallow any theology they might try to sneak in without some level of critical examination. My opportunity presented itself the evening before her departure. Sitting in the bathtub, she began to sing a song from Veggie Tales, one that specifically referenced “God” as a “He.” So I discussed with her that the idea of God is bigger than anyone can get their minds around, and that “God’s too big to be just a HE. Or a SHE.” “Or an IT?” she said, and began giggling. So she sang the song a few more times, experimenting with the pronouns. Then we covered “Where is God?” questions (“Heaven.” “Then where is heaven?” this stumped her for a moment. “Up?” “No. Heaven is in your heart.” “Then God is in my heart!” I am so proud of her).
Then, after I dried her off and braided her hair, I ran her through Nam myoho renge kyo a couple of dozen times, and had her charge some crystals in the goat’s blood font we keep under the pentagram on the living room ceiling, just to be on the safe side. 
But seriously, you might be able to give Dominic some of the tools he’s going to be needing right now, by reading some Bible stories with him, and discussing them just the way you would discuss “Goldilocks and the Three Bears”. If he’s got a mind like his momma’s, he ought to be able to handle it just fine. Keep in mind, he’s likely to find himself increasingly surrounded by kids who have been indoctrinated by their willing parents, so the sooner the better.
I don’t see what the fuss is about.
When he is 18, will you stop people from talking to him about God?
You can’t.
People will.
What if he (God forbid!) became a christian?
Disown him?
You can’t exactly shelter him from other beliefs, you know.
I wouldn’t sweat it, as long as you role model for your son those beliefs and tenets which you consider important. My folks had serious doubts about the whole “jesus is god thing” back in the 50’s, in a community which was not accomodating to those types of beliefs. I had lots of relatives, including a grandmother try to make sure I “heard the message”.
This happened when I was as young as 4 and 5. My parents just told me that each person was entitled to their own beliefs, they told me what they felt was important about their own beliefs, and advised me not to get into arguments with other people about this, but to bring any questions to them. And things worked out.
sigh
Here is what the fuss is about:
I’m not raising my son without religion, I’m raising my son in a DIFFERENT religion. We didn’t think he was ready for it yet so we’ve not talked to him that much about it, but now when he asked about God what we said was “the goddess, the great mother, is who looks after us all” and he said “no, God does!” … she is undermining the religion we’re raising him with, and she knows it.
Further, there is a huge difference between “people” talking to him about Christianity and his Grammy, who he loves and trusts, telling him about it as FACT. We have every intention of teaching him about lots of other religions. There is a difference between telling him that “some people call god ‘Jesus’” and “the only right thing to call god is ‘Jesus’”… you see? And when it comes from his Grammy, it’s going to carry a lot of weight with him. Christianity (at least the way my mother knows and teaches it) is a very restrictive and hateful thing, and I don’t want my son made to fear religion or god or to be told about heaven and hell as if they’re fact. Not at this young age when he still believes that everything his family tells him is 100% truth.
Well, no offense was meant.
I see your point about “people” and grandma.
Have you told her not to do this?
Have you explained that Granny has different beliefs and he should listen to You above other folks?
God Bless ya woman 
Ok, I don’t think it is fair to ask her to shut up about her own beliefs in her own house–after all, to her, these are not “her beliefs”, this is just “the truth”–imagene if you were a grandmother whose daughter was into heavy-duty old-school chiropractic stuff, and when you said to your grandson “wash the germs off your hands before dinner!” and he said back “There are no germs, Grandma! Germs are an invention of the medical community!” Wouldn’t it be a challenge to keep your mouth shut? Especially if it was just the two of you together for almost three weeks?
In your own home you can do damage control, of course–you can be there to override whatever Grandma says, you are there to answer questions as they arise, not three weeks later, you can redirect conversations. I really wouldn’t worry that anything said in your house is going to scar your boy for life, or even confuse him unduly. Children are pretty smart. If anything, it will be good for him to see that Mommy and Grandma can believe different things and still love each other (and him). Now, 2.5 weeks alone with Grandma is a bit more serious–more time for indoctriantion, and less disent–so really, you and your husband have to decide whether or not it is worth it to leave him there, because she isn’t likely to stop. It may well be that you simply don’t have anyone to leave him with when you go on vacation, putting you in the same boat as parents whose own parents are dead or otherwise unable. Unfortuante, but hardly uncommon.
Lastly, I remember in another thread you mentioned that you didn’t see much point in drawing up a will. Remember that if you and your husband die tomorrow, this woman will raise your kid.
Manda Jo, I disagree with you and don’t think you have thought this through. Trying to draw an analogy with germ theory, for which we have a great deal of scientific evidence, to religion and God, for which there is NO objective evidence, is not very logical.
What if grandma believed the universe was controlled by invisible purple trolls that were the motivating force behind all evil in the world? That it was all right to treat everyone horribly for you entire life as long as you sincerely asked the IPT for foregiveness 10 seconds prior to death, assuming that you had give 90% of your income to the IPT church? Would these also be acceptable beliefs for grandma to teach the child if she indeed viewed them as “truth”?
If these were Opalcat’s beliefs would it be ok for the Grandma to correct them?
My point wasn’t that the beliefs are right or wrong, simply that to the Grandma they are TRUE, and she isn’t going to–and can’t be expected to–ignore what for her is the simple truth. Therefore, Opalcat has to deside if the potential damage of being exposed to these ideas is worse than the potential damage of being denied a grandparent. As none of us know the details–i.e., how much the kid is affected by this, how extreme Grandma’s views are, howmuch Grandson benefits from the interaction–this is a decision only Opalcat can make. I myself tend to feel that it is a positive good for a child to see that different people believe different things and still get along, although I would prefer this exposure to be in an envirolment where I am close by to play devil’s advocate to Grandma’s ideas–which seems to be the case here.
Manda,
You’re overlooking a few crucial issues here.
First: Granny’s not the parent.
Second: Granny’s performing a task as the agent of the parent.
Third: As said agent, she is obliged to perform that task to the specifications established by the parent.
Fourth: The parent has already informed said agent of said specifications.
Last: The agent (Granny) needs to be informed, by the parent, in no uncertain terms that a repeated broaching of the specifications set by the parent will result in permanent revocation of visiting privileges.
For Opal: Dare I ask: did Granny take the tyke to church? If so, I’d seriously consider fisticuffs.
Manda Jo– No, it wouldn’t be ok for grandma to “correct” them because they are inherently unprovable. Grandma taking a stance on an unknowable topic when the parent has explicitly stated their desires for this NOT to happen is not acceptable. At most, the grandparent might say something about the inability of mankind to produce evidence of anything associated with this issue.
Grandma may believe that hobgoblins, demons, fairies and unicorns are all “true”, but if OpalCat expressly does NOT want it to be taught to her child as fact, particularly by family members, I think it is reasonable for her to insist on it.
Any grandparent to my children had better learn the difference between the objectively knowable and the inherently unprovable and respect my wishes accordingly.
Monty, the grandparent is also allowed to set whatever conditions she wishes before she agrees to take care of the child. If one of those conditions is that she is allowed to speak of her religion/take the child to church, whatever, then that is her right. Opalcat can decide that the condition is unacceptable and not leave her son with her. I don’t think that Opalcat has any grounds to demand that the grandparent change her beliefs–they grandmother is in no way obligated to see the child at all–but she can decide whether or not she wants the grandparent to have contact with the child.
Hardcore, I understand the differnece betweeen fact and belief. It is the grandparent in question whom I suspect does not. For instance, to my own Grandmother the exsitance of God and the divinity of Jesus are self-evident facts. If the same is true of Opalcat’s mother, than Opalcat and her husband have to find a way to work with that, not just demand that what can’t be changed change.
Let me give you one more example: if you had a child, whom, despite your best efforts, turned into a horrible racist, and that racist’s child often used ethnic slurs in your company, refered to peoploe’s nationality when telling funny stories about them, called the civil war “The War of Northern Agression”, etc., would your at least tell the child they could not do such a thing in your house? Would you try to work in little examples about how racism is bad and silly? I would find it hard to not try to shift racist opinions automatically, without any thought at all. If that wasn’t an option, I would perhaps cut off contact with the child, unable to watch as they grew deeper into thier predjudices, knowing I had no right to correct them. It’s possible that this woman’s religious convictions go as deeply as most poeple’s ocnvictions that it is silly and hurtful to hate someone because of thier race, and if so, Opalcat is going to have to find a way to work with it, not demand that it changes.
Manda Jo, I have yet to see OpalCat make a request for the grandmother to change her own beliefs. She is simply asking her not to pass them on to her son as fact. This is an eminently reasonable request.
It is not OpalCat’s fault if grandma cannot separate objective fact from personal belief, and she should not be made to suffer for it.
You have yet to answer the pertinent question – would it be acceptable if your child went to “summer camp” for 2.5 weeks and was taught about Huge Invisible Green Martians with sharp, pointy teeth that live inside of everyone and force them to do their will, but if the child has one stray impure thought the HIGM come forth, shred the child into pieces and digest him slowly for 100,000 years while all the time he is aware of the pain? Even if you had sufficiently forbid it and the “camp” was aware of your wishes?
Opalcat’s mother’s beliefs include within them the belief that they have to be shared/passed on for the good of the recipient. It appears reasonable to us, but only because we do not share those beliefs.
It’s nobody’s fault, it is just a fact of life. Opalcat has to decide what is more important here–and i have no idea what the answer is–and act accordingly. I don’t see how anyone is being made to suffer.
If you knew in advance that that is what the camp taught, and you sent your child there anyway, then yes, the camp behaving in a totally predictable fashoin would be aceptable. Perhaps next time Opalcat goes on vacation she should look into a camp that wil reinforce the values she wants her kid to be exposed to.
Manda Jo, the mistake in your logic is you are presuming OpalCat should have been able to “predict” what grandma would do or say. I see no reason to make such an assumption. If fact, I suspect OpalCat at least received some tacit reassurances this would not be the case, otherwise she likely would have made other arrangements, unless the issue isn’t really all that important.
By extension, if the camp had implied they would not be brainwashing your child, would it still be ok if they did anyway?
As an aside, implying that a Christian is helpless to stop forcing their beliefs on those around them, particularly when asked not to do so, would seem to me to be an extreme affront to decent Christians everywhere.