Dammit, mom, quit trying to endoctrinate my son!!

The BBQ Pit
21

Hardcore, Opal says that this has happened over and over and over again. HTe “camp” has an established reputation. I think it is pretty reasonalbe to suppose that THIS Christian is not capable of refraining from mentioning thier beliefs. Her mother is clearly not willing to compromise, so Opal eitherhas to compromise or break off contact.

I will say that if Opalcat’s mother explicitly stated “I will not discuss religion with the child” then they have grounds for anger. But if Opalcat simply hoped that her mother had gotton the message and things would somehow be different trhis time . . well, that is never going to happen.

22

hardcore from the OP :

Sounds like Opal has had the converstation before. Now, there will be two divergent opinions here -

one will say that since they’ve had this discussion, gramma should have acceded to mom’s wishes.

the other will say that since mom knows gram’s belief system and given she (mom) has very strong opinions about it, mom should have elected to have child stay elsewhere.

For me, the stance is ‘if some one’s doing me a favor, I have the right to accept said favor as offered or decline, I shouldn’t demand that they do it other than as offered’.

And, FTR, I’m not unfamiliar with the issues. only in my case, the fundie was/is the child’s other parent, so I’ve dealt with my son bowing his head and thanking Jesus for a parking space, as well as direct questions from him as to if I’ve accepted the Lord Jesus my personal savior, so that I won’t go to hell.

It’s irritating, but at least in Opals case, she has a choice to leave her child alone with this person or not. I didn’t.

23

You can borrow mine.

Tell me about it. I vividly recall a 6-year-old girl breaking down in tears for me when I told her I didn’t know what she meant when she asked me, “Have you been saved?” I was only 7 myself. I was confused and frightened because she was so obviously scared for me. Later, my mother saw I was worried about something, so I told her and she went into the girl’s mother but good, telling her in no uncertain terms that “My son’s salvation is MY business, not yours or your daughter’s.”

Mind you, she did and still does believe in salvation. And yet, my parents never tried indoctrinating me. (I guess they noticed how stubborn I can be!) The only times I went to church when I was young was when I visited either my paternal grandparents or my cousin (also on my father’s side) during a weekend sleep-over. I NEVER saw my father in church except during weddings or funerals, including his own funeral. My dad used to say that Jesus was probably just a trouble-maker (not necessarily a bad thing).

24

Manda Jo, since I don’t appear to be reaching you, I will leave you with this – in contrast to your original claim that it isn’t fair to ask grandma to keep her personal beliefs to herself, I feel it is very reasonable. The only person not playing “fair” is grandma by repeatedly doing what she has been asked not to. Faulting OpalCat for failing to predict that her own mother could not possibly change her behavior in this respect seems to be a stance filled with presumptions that are likely based on personal experience with your family, not on objective data presented in this thread. Perhaps you know OpalCat closely IRL and have access to other information. But I fail to understand how anyone cannot see that OpalCat and her son would suffer if she is forced to break contact with her mother.

wring, we have no idea if any conditions were placed on the care by the grandmother. We do know that OpalCat has expressed her desires previously. For most reasonable people, this would be enough.

25

Forgot something:

26

hardcore if you’ll note, I pointed out that there would be two opinions. Yours as you have expressed, and mine as expressed (as in, this person’s doing me a favor. I have the option to accept the favor or decline. If my religious preferences vs. hers is such an issue to me, I’m better off declining the offer).

and, in any event, she certainly has the options clear now.

27

I understand what you are saying, Hardcore, but I think that the personal information we lack extends to a lack of knowledge about how “reasonable” it is to ask the grandmother to refrain from mentioning her own beliefs. People’s beliefs–beliefs you and I may find silly–are often very important to them, and I don’t think it is reasonable to ask them to squelch those beliefs. That is why I tried to use a belief that we presumably share–that racism is bad–to show how hard–practically impossible–it would be to keep from letting your racist grandchild know that you think there is something wrong with saying “nigger” or “kike”.

But as wring so wisely says, this is really a fundamental difference of opinion with legitimate arguements on both sides.

28

I don’t think anyone here has implied that Opal’s mother should squelch her beliefs. Opal has simply asked her mother to refrain from pushing her beliefs onto her grandson, not an unreasonable request by any means.

If granny practiced another religion, say Satanism, would you still be of the opinion that she has every right to “speak of her religion/take the child to church (or in this example, Satanic Ritual”?

Why or why not?

Opal has expressed to her mother clearly that she does NOT want her son, at least at this point in time, to be indoctrinated to other religious beliefs. She has also pointed out that in the future, when he is less impressionable and old enough to understand, he will be exposed to other beliefs. Taking liberties and speaking for Opal, I would assume that she would see this as a good thing. Understanding society, but for now, she doesn’t want him to be exposed and mostly likely confused.

As a mother of a young child, she has every right to set these boundries and expect others to follow them. Granny has no over-riding vote in the matter and Opal has every right to be pissed and expect nothing less than full cooperation. Period.

Let’s switch the channels just a bit. What if the grandparents were the racists? Would you be as quick to excuse them for teaching YOUR 5 YEAR OLD their “very important” beliefs, afterall, they may truly feel that other races are inferior. Would you approve of them wrapping your child in a white sheet and taking him out into the night to plant burning crosses? What if they absolutely, positively, felt that they were doing something to better the world?

Do racist or Satanic grandma’s have as many rights as a Christian? If not, why? Is it because Christianity isn’t as distastful to you, MandaJo?

29

As has been pointed out, part or Opalcat’s mother’s beliefs include the belief that she must push them on the child. And apparently she does not consider this to be a reasonable request.

In that case, I would not let that grandparent babysit for me, no matter how convinient.

In that case, I wouldn’t leave my children with them for two weeks. I certainly wouldn’t yell at them to change thier beliefs and then leave my kids with them.

30

Manda,

I congratulate you on the excess verbiage which you used to post bullshit.

31

Pardon me, Missus Opal, if I’ve got this wrong, but here’s what I’m reading into it:

Opal faces a dilemma, namely, whether it is best for OpalTyke to be raised according to the value system that his folks adhere to, even if that involves cutting off all contact with Grandma, or whether it is best that the kid have contact with a loving gradparent who happens to be an evangelical.

Not wanting to deprive her child of the positive experiences that a relationship with his grandmother would bring, yet not wanting to undermine her parenting philosophy in the process, she’s attempting to effect a perfectly reasonable compromise with her mother, namely, that the kid not have the Bible thumped directly over his head when he’s visiting.

I’d be willing to bet that Grandma would be deeply hurt, and would raise hell (rimshot), if Opal chose to cut off contact. If the belief systems were truly reversed, ie, Granny was a proseletizing pagan and Opal was the fundie in the equation, I doubt many of the Christians who’ve come down on the former’s side so far would feel the same way.

32

Black455, where ever did you get the idea that I was Christian? I think your summary of the situation is probably correct, my point is that Opalcat can’t change it, and so has to live with it one way or another–although ranting about it to let off steam is certainly a legitimate use for the pit. Many, many children have no grandparents for one reason or another. If Opalcat decides that contact with her mother is more detrimental to the child then cutting off contact, well, that’s her decision to make. I just can’t think that the grandma is evil or anything for having strong beliefs, and for being unwilling to put them aside while babysitting for two weeks. I myself would put certain beliefs ahead of the seeing my grandchildren–raceism, homophobia–so I can’t fault the grandmother for feeling htat strongly about her own beliefs.
Excess verbiage, Monty? For god’s sake, take a stab at my spelling, which truly is horrid.

33

But the point is, is that Opal DOES consider it a reasonable request and as the mother of the child, she has every right to expect granny to honor the request.

I am a little disappointed that you did not answer my question, and no I am not assuming you are Christian.

Again -

Do racist or Satanist grandma’s have as many rights as a Christian grandma? If not, why? How about Pagan or Wiccan grannies? Is it because Christianity isn’t as distasteful to you personally?

True, Satanism and racism are considered very bad by most of us, but for those who truly believe, they may, just as Opal’s mother, feel they are doing something good by teaching their convictions to their grandchild. So again, does your argument depend on your personal acceptance of certain beliefs? Does your statement about not letting the Satanist or racist grandparent watch the child not pertain to Christianity because Christianity is not as bad in your eyes? Are you certain that Christianity doesn’t leave a taste in Opal’s mouth as bad as Satanism or racism leaves in yours? What if Opal was raising her son as a Christian and grandma was filling his head with Wiccan beliefs against Opal’s wishes?

“Sorry sweetie, you can’t come visit grandma because your mama won’t let me (***** take your pick), and my beliefs are more important than you. I’m not willing to trade two precious weeks with you by putting my beliefs on the back burner while you are here. So sorry.”

take you to church
make you drink goats blood
burn crosses
worship the Goddesses
read you the Bible
cast spells
bring you with me to protest the abortion clinic
It’s just MHO, but I find that sad and a little disgusting that a grandparent would not be willing to make a sacrifice and honor the wishes of the parent in order to spend time with a grandchild. My grandparents, parents, my kids, and myself all have very different beliefs. However, we have never pushed those beliefs on each other or our children. Thank God/Goddess/Russell Crowe, that we understand and respect the concept of different strokes for different folks, as well as appreciate that NO BELIEF takes precedence over blood. Ever.

34

Ahhhh…

My 10 yr old son just got back from camp, 5 solid days! He had such a great time!! I knew, I mean, I KNEW it was a church supported camp, but I figured a little religion of any kind could only make him a better person - how fucking wrong was I!!

We were in the car FIVE minutes before he informed me he had ‘become cristian’ in some ceremony, and that I was going to hell because I didnt accept the bible as the word of god. :rolleyes:

I countered with :“Well, that is what some religions beleive, that doesnt make it a fact”
Him: " yes it does"
me: “well, it was written by MEN, mne make mistakes, how do you KNOW it is all absolutely true?”
him : " because IT IS!
~snip excessive use of the word “Christian” and other crap for brevity~

me: "If you say Christian one more time I am stopping the car and POUNDING YOU! (paraphrased)

I also explained to him that according to HIS god’s word in the bible, all his family is going to hell, even precious sick grammy, and that he would be better off to examine what he is told rather than just accept any drivel he is spoon fed.

I am not cristian. I just am not. I was raised catholic, I have searched for years for a religion that I could embrace, and have found none.

In the pain of my mothers lengthy illness, I have searched for answers, I find the Buddhist teachings to be the only ones of comfort.

If ONE FUCKING person tells me that mom’s impending death is part of ‘gods plan’ or ‘gods will’ I WILL kill them. I will tear the throats out of the damned sheep that they are!

Sorry for the hijack…

re the OP, its very hard to protect your child from the ‘mission’ of some religions. You cant reason with them, they think it is their mission from god to save all of the rest of us! You just cant reason with that! Poor Opal, she cant beat this into her mom’s head because the deeper her faith is, the MORE certain it is that she MUST save the child!

If Opal was JEWISH, she wouldnt have as much trouble getting people to respect her faith. Sad isnt it?

Its really a form of prejudice.

I have thought of telling people I am jewish just to get them to Fuck Off! I dont want to go to your church, my kids arent BROKEN, and they dont need to be saved!!

Opal, I would get a book about muslims and jews and Budhists and all sorts of religions and explain that everyone beleives different things, and that that is ok.

Aww fuck it, I am a hippocrit. :frowning: The boys know my Mom is dying, and I told them she will go to heaven, because they seem comforted by that idea.

Its easier to be christian that anything else, maybe its better to just let them save the kids.

I am tired, I dont know anything anymore.

35

I did answer your question–I said that I wouldn’t let Satanistic grandparents watch my children, and I don’t find Wicca at all distasteful. What I find distasteful is not the issue here. I don’t think that any grandparents have any rights whatsoever regardless of any beliefs that have/don’t have, but if you are going to leave your kids wiht them for two weeks, you have to acknowledge that you are leaving your children with your parents, not the parents you wish you had.

As I have said in every single post I have made, if Opal feels that this relationship is more detrimental than positive, she should end it. I support her right to do that 100%. I do NOT think that the grandmother has any moral obligation to ignore her own beliefs in order to spend time with her grandchild. It might not be a choice you, personally, would make, but it is a legitimate choice. If I had a grandchild who had been taught that all Jews deserve to die, and my daughter told me I had to let statements like that slide or I couldn’t see my grandchild ever again, I would cut off contact. I certainly wouldn’t condone such attitudes through my silence.

You want to believe this, fine, but I don’t think that Opal’s mother is obigated to agree with you–a case of different strokes for different folks, if you will.

36

My grandmother would sneak her infant grandchildren into the kitchen and perform a ‘baptism’ to save their heathen souls. We got a kick out of these kitchen-conversions and none of us begrudged her doing this because her personal faith was so strong and fortunately wasn’t spouted to the rest of us. Her (Catholic) version of god was of a god that loved her, not one that she feared. If she had been a Satanist would we have reacted the same way? Probably, but the laugher might have been strained.

Your Mom won’t obey your wishes so you have to make up your own mind about whether or not she sits for them in the future. You have an opportunity to refute and explain every statement she tells them and perhaps that’s just part of parenting. These dealings with your Mom are only a small part of misinformation that will be directed toward your kids in the years to come.

I totally agree with you that she shouldn’t be going against your wishes, but as with my grandmother, you have to weigh the many aspects of her personality and decide how she approaches them on many levels, not just the religious. Is this out of love or mean-spirit? Are the benefits of having a grandmother outweighed by her intent to indoctrinate them?

It sucks, but that’s the way it is.

37

I didn’t. I explained my view on her beliefs to my son… and was scolded for it. (in her house)

Well usually we take him on vacation with us, but this time it was too expensive to do so, and he wouldn’t have enjoyed it anyway… but I don’t think that sleep-away camp is appropriate for a 5 year old in any case, and I do want to encourage and foster the relationship Dominic has with his Grammy. For the most part it’s a very positive relationship… and I thought we’d gotten the religion thing sorted out last time it came up… sigh Religion is confusing enough to a small child without hearing different stories from respected adults. He has and will hear about Christianity from us–we tell him that some people believe this, etc etc. Then we explain our own beliefs to him. It’s very frustrating to have my mom’s religious sabotage confusing the poor kid.

38

No, it’s happened a couple of times only, and they were several years ago, and I thought we’d discussed it then and reached an understanding.

Again, it’s rare enough that they get to see each other… I really don’t want to have religion drive them apart, or have to restrict her visits with him because of this issue… that would be tragic. I’d sooner just tell him ahead of time that Grammy was flat out wrong or lying and to just smile and nod when she talked about her god, and then ignore it. This isn’t how I want him to view her religion though, and I’d much rather not do that.

39

Just to end the debate over it, I’m NOT ending contact/relationship/etc visits with my mom. I’m just NOT. I’ve worked too hard my whole life to reach the point where I think she might actually sort of like me, and she actually LOVES my son… it’s taken almost 30 years to achieve this and I treasure it.

I won’t be leaving Nicky with her alone for longer than it takes to see a movie for several more years, however. If we lived closer to each other, withholding visits would make more sense, but when seeing each other is such a rare and treasured event… I put their relationship as a higher priority.

40

I dunno, myself.
It seems Granny has planted a seed.
What if Nicky decides on his own to become a christian?
Would you tell him he’s wrong?
You can’t say for sure he would be wrong.