What he said. We never would have lasted as long as we did in that game without being able to talk during the day, thanks to the mass role claim.
That could be arranged…
This has happened, see the Blade Runner game, in where I was scum and I KNEW **Dotchan **was scum, but she thought she was a townie. That was one of the MOST FRUSTRATING games for me, because she would come up with the most TERRIBLE reasoning for why I was scummy- and I could deflect them and turn them into reasons for why SHE could be scum for coming up with such terrible reasoning. But I couldn’t be too hard on her, because I KNEW she’d eventually become scum and that we needed her around, but she’d just rally to try to kill us scum off with terrible logic :smack:
Eventually we had to settle on turning her just so that she would stop trying to get so many of us lynched- because it was just turning into daily Me vs. **Dotchan **fights over who was the scummy one back and forth, when I knew we were BOTH scum…
God… the one time I’d lynch **Dotchan **for info and I’d be right- I couldn’t because I was scum too and I needed her to stick around! Though that helped out in teh endgame, because when you analyzed her moves at the end- she came out looking RIDICULOUSLY Towny for constantly going toe-to-toe vs. all the killed off scum, and she managed to win the final 3 in that game (and by a coinflip on her part)… But oh man, it was NERVE wracking up to that point.
Yes. One town and one mafia at the same time.
Kudos to you guys for that. As a spoiled observor it was fun to watch you guys strategize. You had probably the best coordinated scum team I’ve ever seen. Especially since the freak events of Night1 1 combined with the mass claim basically had the game all but winnable for you guys. (Interesting how had Night 1 not gone down that way, the game would have played very differently.)
I agree that Masons being able to talk is not nearly the same advantage, but I think you’re discounting some possibilities. You KNOW that everyone you’re discussing with are pro-town, so you can share things like possible power role tells, and you can help eachother put together arguments. I really think being able to strategize with the knowledge that you don’t have anti-town elements potentially poisoning your thought processes counts for something. But, again, to allow the scum to talk during the Day, it isn’t enough, but it is something that can be taken into consideration.
I agree, it is suppose to be seemless and, at least in this game, they did a pretty good job of it. One thing I learned from the SDMB game, and something that I suspected was going on in this game, is that scum can do pretty much anything they want as long as they make it look pro-town, because it’s easy to keep people from looking at scum motivation when they’re caught off-guard, confused, or otherwise affected in a way that impacts their rationality. I thought the scum were doing a pretty good job of laying low, but I also felt like my lynch is an excellent example of how this sort of coordination works.
That is, it appears pro-town to eliminate anti-town elements, but all the scum know is that I was not scum, and was either a powerful pro-town role, or third party, either of which was advantageous for them to remove. If they hadn’t had the opportunity to talk, it probably would have been more obvious, but it was patently obvious to me who was scum and who was town because I knew my role. You had JSexton, who I felt pretty much screamed scum the whole time. But he couldn’t do it alone, the town’s people were legitimately confused and not sure how to handle it, but the ones that looked scummy to me, it very much looked like they were working together to paint me as a Serial Killer.
Of course, I’m spoiled now, so I can’t comment on the veracity of my beliefs to JSexton and MHaye being scum, but the third person I was too lazy to go remember who it was also seemingly helped contribute to getting the town to believe I was anti-town, just in a much more subtle way. Again, it didn’t matter if I was scum or PFK, as long as the town thought I was anti-town.
Really, it’s unfortunate that the town decided my PMs were most-likely truthful, but completely ignored my arguments. Perhaps I had some advantage, knowing the truth of my role, but the town should have been doing parallel analysis, and realized that the scum had as much, if not more, reason to want me dead. Either way, the town should know that they have a higher level coordination, and they should be looking for it. Sure, it is harder to detect, but by not looking, they’re just being lazy.
This would be a very fun idea. It would, of course, be very moderator intensive, because the scum would have to vote on who to kill through PMs. If it were to be done, it would probably be best in a simple set-up with fewer players.
I get what you are saying. My only fear is that if the coordination is sufficiently seamless, the signal to noise ratio could be impossibly small. I don’t know though. I don’t recall playing any games where scum could communicate during the Day (at least none where I survived for long enough).
I’ve mainly been playing mafia as a patter recognition game. Most of my “catches” have been due to seeing someone’s actions and behavior in the context of previous games. A whole lot of “well in Conspiracy 1, HazelNutCoffee said x and was scum and I let that slip, and now in Conspiracy 2, ‘iforgetwho’ did pretty much the same thing so I think he’s scum.” So, maybe if I played in a few games where I saw scum Daytime coordination behavior, I’d be better able to see it, but without previous experience, I don’t think I’d be able to do it.
Funny side note: I had lunch with a friend and I commented on how our waiter is a bear. He (not gay) said he doesn’t have gaydar. I brought up the pattern recognition thing there. Gaydar isn’t some mystical force, it’s just pattern recognition. If I see someone who reminds me of other people I know to be gay, then the chances of that person being gay too are much higher.
Same thing for finding scum and town.
My thought was to have all scum vote once and take the plurality with a ranking of scum to break ties. So everyone votes once; not too terrible for the moderator.
As a computer scientist doing a PhD in pattern recognition, I can absolutely relate to this approach to the game. This is no small part in my style of changing styles as a way of thwarting this sort of approach. The thing is, determining data points on which to define patterns is difficult because there’s a high level of dimensionality around circumstances, individual playstyle, etc.
The problem with a purely pattern recognition approach, is that it also comes with a handbook on how to defeat it. All the scum have to know is what patterns you’re looking for, and they can avoid them. If you are looking for someone who bandwagon votes, or uses poor logic/strategy, or posts a bunch of fluff, or whatever, the scum can avoid those particular behaviors or particular patterns of behaviors. Sometimes situations will change in a way that’s not so easy to determine.
As for this particular situation, I think that it ended up being easier for me to see because, as I said, I was the only one who knew my role, and also because I, as scum, had successfully done something very similar in my last game. JSexton stuck out like a sore thumb to me because I’d done virtually the exact same thing and used much of the exact same reasoning before. I think that is a valid use of pattern recognition. From there, assuming JSexton was scum, knowing their motivation, and looking for people that are working with him, I came up with a list of people that fit the number of scum that I thought was left. That’s something that pattern recognition by itself won’t detect. But, I was able to use it to find someone, then use that someone to determine the scum motivation, then use that scum motivation to see who else has behavior that fits that mold.
But take a look, you have JSexton attacking me aggressively, you then had MHaye come in and try to make a reasonable looking post. But you also had another person, who looked like scum, who was coming in and adding reassurance and agreement. This is the sort of coordinated attack I’d expect, because seeing people agree with you, and not just adding on the attack helps make your points look more legitimate than they are. There were also some people who were very clearly not working with him (Cookies is a good example).
Eh, I wish I could go into more detail about my reasoning, but because I’m spoiled and know whether I’m right or not, it wouldn’t be a good idea.
Yeah, it could work, but generally, even in in person games, scum can do some amount of communication, like seeing who voted for who and then possibly changing their vote in agreement. But, I suppose as long as it’s worked out in advance, it would be workable.
(Underlining added.) This is a beautiful typo!
Non-communicating scum is an instance for which a Borda count is perfect.
No! No more Borda count! 
Ah. A computer scientist! I’ll be more precise in my explanation. I’m not talking about pattern recognition in the scientific sense of looking for particular behaviors or patterns. I’m referring to a more holistic approach, not something that could be programmed or quantified. It is more of a eureka moment of recognition rather than a search for particular patterns. In other words I’m not looking for anything, but I use pattern recognition to compare current observations to past experiences. Therefore, the idea that certain patterns are to be avoided isn’t really valid.
For example, I identified NAF as scum in Terminator based on his being nice to me. I wasn’t looking for someone “behaving nice to me.” I compared his behavior to past games and concluded that people who were nice to me were more likely to be scum.
The patten was ‘novel’ for that game. So much so that people were suspicious of me for bringing it up as a reason to suspect NAF. And obviously NAF didn’t know to avoid that pattern. Though now I guess he will have to be mean to me forever more 
Borda Count:
Scum could borda count as well, it doesn’t really matter. But a tie-breaker would be needed regardless of plurality count or borda count.
I was also thinking of publishing the vote to scum after the kill so they see what the vote is for the next night.
Well, that one ticked me off for two reasons:
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I had,up until that game, been making a fairly genuine effort to be a bit more polite in these mafia games of ours.
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I actually was being too nice to you because of Seekham and I was kicking myself for not jumping on you harder once you pointed it out.
If it makes you feel better, I liked that you were being nice to me; and I felt bad using that as a reason against you. And it wasn’t just the niceness. It was also your compliance to my requests for information about the reset and the contrast in behavior between you and Rysto.
A frustrated NAF is a Townie NAF (at least for now).
Yeah, I think you are right, I get VERY frustrated as town. Heck, even as PFK in Marvel who just wanted town to stop flogging themselves I got frustrated.
Me too, particularly Vanilla town. That’s why I had to take a break. Too many damn games where scum manipulated Town against me. Gah!! There’s nothing worse than getting nabbed by a scum bear trap when you’re not a real bear, but a friendly guy in a bear suit going to a kid’s birthday party…
Yeah, I hate when that happens…
Am I the only one who finds this post hilarious?
No. I actually laughed out loud when I read it.
Okay, I see what you mean now. And, actually, I agree with your assessment of NAF in that game. The only real problem is, if it’s a ‘novel’ reason, you’re going to have a hard time convincing people of your reasoning, like you did in that game or, as in this game, why my argument against JSexton got zero traction.
At the same time though, it can be used against you. For instance, my crazy aggression in the Recruiting game was a result of me trying to get myself lynched. I followed that with some crazy aggression in the Simpletown game, hoping the detective would think it was a scum tell for me, to get myself investigated and confirmed as town. Of course, that’s a pro-town example, but similar situations could be theorized where someone is pro-town in one game and try to use it as cover in the next.
I don’t see how that post, all by itself isn’t enough to get him lynched.
Wait, why? I have perfect information and I don’t get it.
My gut has finally spoken to me this game… though it might just be the Soft Tacos I just ate…
But I’m calling it: Special Ed is scum.