Yes, I know and accept there are many people who don’t share my and other Christians (not all) belief system. I will try not to discriminate. I just desire to please my Lord, and I know not everyone believes in the same supreme being. In my zeal to share what I believe to be God’s truth, I tend to not say things the way I should. I’m trying to work on this. My beliefs haven’t changed but I want to be able to share in a better manner.
Just for the sake of reason, without any intention to budge into the argument per se…
Christian Fundamentalism in its Protestant flavor is eschatological to the extreme. That wouldn’t exactly make it a death cult, but it’s darn too close to make a call on if it actually is, or is not.
I agree that we should use polite terms though, when classifying belief systems. I’d suggest sticking to the widely accepted ‘eschatological’ and/or ‘apocalyptic’ (labels that still carry with them the same core message as the one here criticized).
Anti-human would also be a wee bit strong a term. Anti-humanistic or even anti-humane is sometimes used to described parts of the Christian apocalyptic belief system due to its message of exclusivity and tendency towards condemnation rather than inclusion and forgiveness.
Sparc
Getting back a little late with response to this due to ridiculous overload of work at the moment.
I’m not sure that I think it’s the worse idea to drive the bigots underground. You see in my theory we won’t make them emotionally change their mind in the majority of cases no matter what we do. The only thing we can do is make sure that they see clearly and unequivocally that opinions they hold to heart are so unacceptable in society that they have no choice but to pipe down.
While they are silenced we can work to eliminate the actual practical and effective discrimination in society. Keep them silent while we do that and make sure that it stays so. Inform. Educate. Debate the ones that still will raise the ugly voice of intolerance. The bigots will still rub of some of their prejudice on their offspring, but these will have the benefit of an open-minded society that provides a counterpoint.
To judge by the last seventy years of fighting racial prejudice this is the only way. In other words it’s a task that will take generations and the first step is to whack the bigoted bastards with a healthy dose of debate that is so overwhelming that they have no choice but to show their cards or shut up. The second is legislating equal rights. The third is silencing their voice of oppression and support of oppression, parallel to which the systematic spread of information and education about equality and the minority perceived as ‘evil’ is essential. Why? Because the perpetuation of believes in non-equality is the base of crimes against our highest universally agreed moral and ethical code, namely The Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
It might sound harsh and authoritarian, but you know some things just aren’t as easy to change as logic and reason would have us believe. I think culturally based prejudice and hatred are amongst those things.
For instance; I am frequently amazed at the few remaining members of the generation of continental Europeans who were adults in the 1930s, who still will slip in a slur here and a slur there against the Jews while adding that they don’t mean it “the old way”… of course. Thank God we silenced them and gave their offspring the chance to make sounder opinions for themselves.
Sparc
Look, I don’t much like you as a person, at least based on the way you’ve been presenting yourself on the boards, but if you really want this all to go away, I’m going to give you some honest, heartfelt advice:
SHUT UP!
If you’re sick of being attacked for your opinons, stop sharing them. Stop posting in threads about homosexuality, or in threads about people who hate homosexuals. Stop trying to defend yourself against all the people you’ve offended. Let them vent their spleen, but don’t respond. As long as you keep giving us ammuntion, we’re going to keep shooting you down. But if you stop being a target, we’ll eventually forget about you when the next homophobe wanders onto the boards and starts talking out his or her ass.
On the other hand, if you want to continue in your career as Board Martyr, keep trying to defend in indefensible. Keep posting about how much the all-powerful being who ignited the stars and spun out the cosmos is obssesed about where people stick their willies, and there will be an unending line of people waiting to tell you how deeply stupid they think you are. Because while you’re just standing up for your beliefs, the other side is fighting for their lives. And they are not going to stop, unless you stop first.
It is a death cult. All fundamentalist churches, on the whole, appear to care about is the “getting saved” crap. They do little to nothing to improve the world we’re in right now. They’re entire theological focus is beyond the current life, which is a total departure from historic Christianity. And because they do nothing to help the world we’re in, and do a great deal to hinder the progress and protection of those not like them, I stand by my comment that they are anti-human (or inhumane, if you prefer).
Fundies do suck ass, but only within the bonds of a blessed-by-God marriage. And my quality of life has been signifigantly impacted, in a negative way, over the past couple of years, by gangs of fundamentalists. One in particular has spent the last eight months intentionally making me miserable and treating me like dirt for the sin of being honest about myself.
And to think I used to be stupid enough to consider that worthless fuck my best friend.
Kirk
Cooooool it Kirk, there is really no need.
Your friend is vermin. No doubt.
And yes we need to shout down the bigots IMHO, as expressed a few posts back, but even then we need to do so with the force of reason, otherwise we can’t win.
Respectfully and caringly
Sparc
PS WB BTW DS
Kirkland: Please share your light, not your anger.
-Ace
PS SNG CDD MSSGS? – Y R TH GY MF!
Hey! His4Ever!
Posting as an atheist here, the crap you’ve been spewing on these fora is some of the most hideous hateful shit I associate with some Christians. Seriously. I’m not going to debate the existence of any god whatsoever. Polycarp, Jodi, and others have asked you if you think you can convince someone to seriously consider Christianity if you continue with the “God says it’s wrong” crap (my paraphrasing). I’ll tell you. I either laugh or roll my eyes and think, “Prove it! But first, prove your angry, petulant little tribal war god exists!” Then you pipe up with something about conveying the “message” more gently. Sorry, dear, you can’t polish a turd. Bigotted shit remains bigotted shit no matter how you sugar coat it.
I’ll close with my favorite line to Bible-thumping bigots: Get off your cross, sweetheart! We need the wood!
Ace, since you’re on this board defending people like HisWhatever, don’t expect me to waste time on your “advice.”
As much as I hate to say it, the Christians are too often defrauding their own faithful to deal with bettering society. One example, and I don’t know how much it made the national and international news, was a high-profile case of fraud by Christians located in the Southwestern part of the United States.
First, to Kirk: calm down, dude … you’re among (mostly) friends. As James Taylor said, “you can close your eyes, it’s alright.”
Let’s play a game called “Imagine If”:
Imagine If…
-
A good percentage of the world considered it to be a sin to be Christian, and even worse to engage in Christian activities like food drives, cleaning up litter from the streets, opening a free clinic for poor folks, and shocker here believing in God.
-
These folks didn’t hide their condemnation, ignorance of Christians/ity, nor did they refrain from physical or verbal attack.
Now you tell me how easy it would be to just accept this as status quo.
As much as you can’t say what you think we want to hear, we cannot back down. Simply can’t. To do so, as I’ve said at least once, and as other have said, would be admitting defeat.
Would you do so?
And furthermore … how to put this. Part of preaching God’s word is to reach a lot of people with open minds and hearts (all around), yes? If you come in with “well, being gay is a sin and it’s wrong to act on gay thoughts”, you’re going to alienate a lot of folks here REALLY fast, not to mention in a lot of other places. Recently at a dopefest there was … hmm. Myself (bisexual), gobear (gay), Ultrafilter (at least partially bisexual), and at least four Christians: RTFirefly, my mother phantomdiver, Triskadecamus and Polycarp. VERY early on (once things got underway and Poly showed up), gobear and Poly were talking and for some reason I happened to turn to Poly as he said the following words to gobear:
“I don’t care who you love.”
He said it in a way such that I understood, and I believe gobear understood, that he believed his place is not to tell people who they may or may not love (with the understanding of “human consenting adult” being part of that:)). Love, as in agape, as in eros, as in filia. Sexuality and love aren’t all about the hot, sweaty ugly-bumping;) And a miniscule (if that big) part of your religion addresses even the issue of men having sex with other men. How much of the Bible is narrative history (with folks begettin’ folks, and men knowing their wives an’all’at), or crying out to God for help and God answering? And how much of it is God condemning someone for having sex with someone of their own gender?
Think about which is more important to God: spreading a message of love and acceptance or spreading select portions of Leviticus.
It might help you to answer that, by the way, to know that my father, who is a monk, chooses the former. Chose the former when he was, I think, 15. And for the people on this board who believe in God and have been successful witnesses to Him, yeah, they will answer questions about their religious beliefs. They do so quite frequently. But they also participate in many many many other areas of the board. Some things having nothing to do with religion whatsoever.
You’ve become somewhat of a one-trick pony in the past month or so. Look to avoid that or people will start to say “Oh, His4ever posted … this is going to be something about how she can’t say what we want her to say about gays because it’s wrong and the bible says so and a buncha bullshit like that. Why the fuck does she even come here anymore if she knows we don’t value what she has to say?”
Well said, punha.
irkland, you are so right.
In our quest to find a church (we still haven’t) we went to one nearby.
The second week we were there, the pastor talked about a special offering so they could put a new carpet in the church.
Oh, okay, good priorities.:rolleyes:
Pun, that was beautiful.
His4Ever, I’m sure you know what Jesus said was the first and greatest commandment and what was next unto it. Whatever I might happen to think about these guys (and as it happens I don’t believe your interpretation of how the Scriptures you and Jersey have quoted is applicable to their circumstances – something we might discuss in GD), it’s my job, not to compel them to obey God’s law – not by force, not by coercion, not by sweetness and light, not by making it the law of the state, not in any way – but to show them the love and respect they deserve as people for whom my Lord was willing to be tortured to death, and to show them God’s love as best I can by word and deed. That’s what we’re commanded to do. There is not one word in Scripture about Christians being required to proclaim the Torah or Paul’s opinions as God’s Law over anyone (other than the Jews who follow the former) but a very great deal about teaching the Good News of a richer, fuller life in Christ and of showing love to your brother and sister human beings. (If Jesus were telling the parable today, he’d have a televangelist and a Wall Street lawyer drive by the mugging victim, and then have a gay black Rastafarian stop and help him – that’s the closest thing I can come up with to what His Jewish listeners thought of a Samaritan.)
Think about it. And remember, there is one gay person in America who hasn’t heard all about what Paul and Leviticus have to say about homosexuality – and he’s blind and deaf, and institutionalized.
BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING SWEETER THAN GIVING THOSE FLAMIN’ HETEROSEXUAL REPROBATES A PSYCHOLOGICAL WEDGIE! 
Ahemmm.
What!? Oh,… the wrong crowd? Damn!
Are you SURE? Oh, well. I’ll get 'em next time…
OK, folks, I’ve been reading this thread with interest…
It is NONE OF MY BUSINESS whom you want to/do have sex with. As long as you are both (or all three, or more, or whatever floats your boat) fully cognizant, consenting adults, I don’t care what you do behind closed doors. I may have a prurient interest because I’m a nosy bastard, but as far as what’s a “sin” and what’s not, NEITHER I, NOR ANY OTHER HUMAN, GETS TO MAKE THAT KIND OF JUDGMENT. Period.
Those of you who believe in a god of some kind (though I’m mainly speaking to Christians here, since that’s the only religion I have much personal experience with): put some trust in that god to handle the matter His Own Omnipotent Self. It is not up to you to interpret god’s will, and it is DEFINITELY not up to you to ACT on any human interpretation of god’s will, including (especially) the Bible. Bear in mind that the ways of god are mysterious–everyone who’s read II Kings 2:23-24 has to admit that–and that you cannot understand them, much less act as the official enforcer. So for Pete’s sake, stop assuming that YOU are god’s attorney on Earth!
To recap: What other people do is NONE OF YOUR (OR MY) BUSINESS. If god has a problem with it, ASSUME GOD WILL HANDLE IT and knock off the scare tactics. It doesn’t harm you one bit; this is proven by the fact that gay people are having sex every day, and you are still here to moan about it. You believe god exists and has a problem with homosexuality? Fine; then trust god enough to let him deal with it.
[minor hijack] Why do people get so fucking upset about what other people do to make each other happy? :smack: [/minor hijack]
There was an article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer this morn, so i assume its on the AP wire about violence towards gays in West Hollywood!
Baseball bats and other weapons. Some men are afraid to walk around.
Thats the point!
How to stop this madness.
?:mad:
Hey! I’m getting left out then!
There’s been a spate of violence in San Diego as well. It’s horrifying. Just when you think you’re safe in “your own neighborhood,” somebody decides they know better.
Heterosexual privilege, indeed…
Esprix
C’mon, Esprix, don’t you realize that the right to remain secure in your health and possessions is a privilege extended only to people without intrinsic disorders regarding their sexual orientation? :eek: