For crying out loud, what's the point of the homosexuality debates??

The BBQ Pit
161

Thank you, Polycarp, I truly appreciate your understanding of what I was trying to say.

I would like to say that I am not angry with His4ever. I am more…well, heartsick would perhaps be the best way to describe how I feel.

I deal with this within my own church. There are many people there, GOOD and faithful Christians, who agree wholeheartedly with His4ever. People who I am sure are sincere Christians, but who just don’t see that they are not (IMHO) adhering to the teachings of Christ as I understand and believe them. And I DO present my interpretation when it is appropriate, but…no dialogue ensues. At least at that point. (I am pragmatic enough to realize that dialogue probably ensues behind my back) I would like to believe that at least people THINK about what I have said, but I have no way of knowing whether they do.

I know that it is comforting for some people to be totally convinced that they are “right”…to the exclusion of any thought alien to the thought they already hold. I don’t personally feel that it threatens my faith to consider other people’s beliefs if they are different from mine…I am intelligent and strong enough not to be swayed unless I come to a realization that I am wrong.

Anyway, it is wonderful for me to actually be able to engage in dialogue here about these things. I hope that His4ever feels the same, or at least is willing to consider what had been said here.

Once again, thank you so much Polycarp. I appreciate your ability to discuss these things in GD…I am intelligent enough to know that I am not intelligent enough to go there and engage in the kind of debate that occurs there. I only know what I believe, and why I believe it…it would be impossible for me to articulate that in GD in any acceptible way.

Much Love,

Cheri

162

Scotticher, most Christians I know believe the whole Bible to be God’s word, not just the words of Christ. But then again, people can sit around and argue over this and that and the seeming contradicitions, yada yada yada and how do we really know it’s God’s word and how do we know that man didn’t put his own views in there and so forth and so on. It goes nowhere. If someone wishes to find and excuse or an “out” for their lifestyle, Scriptures can be twisted and misinterpreted to find that out. I’ve tried to rationalize myself in the past though I knew inside I was really in the wrong. Anyway, JMHO. Respectfully, His4ever

163

Polycarp, I have a question for you. For the life of me I don’t understand you. What do you consider to be loving? To tell someone that they’re okay? Their lifestyle is not wrong and there’s no danger no matter what they do? To me it’s not love if I know someone’s eternal soul is in grave danger and I say absolutely nothing about it to that person. I believe God wants me to say something. Please read Ezekiel 3:18-21. How is it hate to tell someone what the Bible says about someting? I’m truly puzzled. :confused: I haven’t judged anyone personally, just said what I believe God says about the behavior. I’m trying to be respectful here and weighing my words so bear with me. If I know and am convicted by the Holy Spirit because of what God’s word says about something and, then, when I’m asked about it don’t tell the truth, is that love? Is it really and truly loving to say nothing and make a person that’s involved in a wrong lifestyle feel comfortable in what they’re doing?? I do ask the Lord for guidance and I’m not angry at anyone. Respectfully, after reading what the Word says, and praying, I still have the Holy Spirit conviction in my heart that homosexuality is wrong in God’s eyes. I DO have compassion and care about people. I wish I could give them the answer they want. I truly do but the conviction of God on my heart tells me something different than what they want to hear. I’ve tried to share the truth in a loving manner, but no matter how gentle a person is, some will always take it as being hateful. Should I water down what I believe to be true to make everyone happy? Just because Jesus Himself didn’t say anything about a particular subject, doesn’t mean it’s right. I believe the whole Bible to be the Word of God, not just the words of our precious Lord Jesus Christ. I’m not the hateful, vindictive person everyone thinks I am. Wish you could understand. Anyway, respectfully submitted, His4ever.

John 15:19-21

164

You know, H4E, I don’t think you have any business asking Polycarp any questions until you have the decency to answer some of the questions he’s put to you in these discussions. Whenever you’re asked specific questions about your beliefs in these forums, you claim you don’t have the time to address them; yet you keep showing up, repeating your meaningless, baseless blather. How is it that someone with so little time can do that?

We’ve tried every possible means to engage you in actual debate, but you seem to have developed a complete immunity to all rational processes. It’s pointless to keep coming in here and saying the same thing over and over again; that’s not discussion, it’s annoying. If you want to hear yourself talk, buy a karaoke machine.

Having tried every possible rational method of trying to engage you in actual discussion, and failed, I think it’s time to try some less-rational approaches. Here goes:

*The curtain opens on MrVisible stands alone onstage as the curtain rises, bathed in a blue spotlight, wearing a nice business suit with an enormous yellow tie. He proceeds to do a lengthy and moving interpretive dance sequence encapsulating the dichotomies of joy and sorrow that spring from being homosexual in a society that rejects gays, and encompassing the love and acceptance he’s found within the homosexual community. A series of graceful leaps symbolize his transcendence of the limitations that others would place on him for being different; a beautiful pas-de-deux occurs when his boyfriend appears on stage, and they fall in love, bathed in beautiful spotlights of autumn colors. The two dancers gradually harmonize their movements, and begin to proceed offstage, touching, every so often, lovingly.

His4Ever is represented by a noisy fart from an audience member late in the performance.*

165

Is your sex life my business? Last I checked, on the list of “things that are my business”, people’s sex lives, provided they’re not mine or my girlfriend’s, are not my business. We’re not killing people or raping people or anything bad like that. So what is it that makes my sex life or anyone else’s your business?

And for that matter, how do you know that anybody is even HAVING sex? Or doing anything else? Do you just assume that because someone is gay or bisexual that they’re running around fucking everything with a hole big enough?

Are you God? Because last I checked He’s the only one who knows where someone’s soul is going. Not you, not me, not Polycarp, not Dubya, not the freaking POPE. NOBODY BUT GOD. You don’t know for sure that Ted fucking Bundy is going to hell. Not John Walker Lindh, not Zacharias Moussaoui, not Timothy McVeigh, not Ted Kaczinsky, not a single soul.

You.

Don’t.

Know.

How do you know it applies? How do you know, for example, that anyone who is gay is having sex and thus, according to your interpretation of this particular part of the Bible, violating Leviticus?

Do you know, or do you assume that if someone is gay they are having sex?

Oh bullshit. Do we really have to go back to GD where you told people they were abominations? You only got marginally better, saying The Bible said they were abominations, and even that isn’t strictly accurate according to even the most conservative translations, which point to the seemingly-impossible action (how exactly do you lay with a man as with a woman? Men don’t generally have the same parts;)).

Do you know what it says about people who lie about God’s word and spread hate and judgment? I’m pretty sure someone could look up a passage or two:rolleyes:

Maybe you’re just not understanding this. When I have seen the various religious folk on this board who have garnered respect … when I see them speak the most concretely about what the Bible says, they are talking about loving people on this earth unreservedly. They do not approach the old testament or various nitpicky rules with anywhere NEAR the certainty with which they approach the VERY MESSAGE OF THE BIBLE.

Ask Polycarp some time how certain he is of his beliefs. He knows he could be wrong. He’s pretty sure he’s right, but he is as willing as the next person to admit he could be wrong. And that’s why his message is of LOVE. And that’s one big reason he’s effective.

Go lurk for a month or two in GD and see who gets respect from other posters (in religious debates and in non-religious). Study their methods and apply them. You’ll find that generally two things work:

  1. Knowing your stuff and being able to explain your beliefs.
  2. Acknowledging when you’re wrong.

What. Business. Is. It. Of. Yours. Who. Someone. Has. Sex. With. If. Both. People. Are. Human. Consenting. Adults?

And who told you they were, either? How do you know, based on my sexuality, ANYTHING of my life? You couldn’t tell me what color clothing I’m wearing right now, even less who I’m with or when/if I last had sex.

What business is it of yours who I love?

Here is the answer I want from you:

“I could be wrong. And since I know I, as a human being, am fallible, regardless of my interpretation of Scripture I understand that the underlying message of the Bible is love. Not what you eat, not what huamn consenting adult you have sex with, but love.”

Does the Bible tell you to assume that because someone is gay, they are having sex with a man?

How did he handle the woman accused of adultery? Did he start spewing Bible verses at her? Maybe the versions of the Bible I’ve read were abridged…

Here is my message to you:

What you do with your life, as long as you try to be a loving, nonjudgmental person and remember that this God of yours prefers that you leave judgment up to him, is up to you. Your love life is just that: yours. Your sexual orientation is just that: how you are. None of that is my business unless you make it such. And the fact that you’re gay/bi/attracted to sheep tells me as much about your sexual activity as your eye color does: absolutely nothing.

You can surmise as much about (the existence of) my sex life from my sexuality as you can from the fact that I have a nose. Or the fact that I had bacon for breakfast this morning. Or any number of other random things. That I’m gay or straight or bi or whatever doesn’t mean I’m having sex, nor does it tell you with whom I am having sex.

And you know what? Assuming I am having sex, it’s still none of your business. I’m not molesting children or having an affair with anyone. Nobody is dying or diseased because of me. You don’t see gobear or Polycarp or cj or anyone else making assumptions about your sex life based on your sexuality or marriage.

Why do you make assumptions with us?

166

No, I don’t think you’re hateful, and (possibly nearly alone among the people here) I do see the sincere love for your fellow man behind what you’re doing.

The problem is, you are not “speaking to their condition.” You’re quoting Scripture passages (which have strong meaning to you, since you’re a believer) and expecting them to convince people who don’t have your love for Scripture and your sense of its “aliveness” in your heart. (Notice that I’m empathizing with you here, and “speaking to your condition.”)

Now take any of the gay people here. They are unanimous in testifying that their sexual orientation was not something they choose but something they found out about themselves, and that they are unable to change it. In at least two cases I can recall – searingly and heart-wrenchingly, they have stated that they sincerely tried to change, out of a sense (inculcated by society) that they were wrong to feel as they do.

I won’t rehearse the reasons why many Bible scholars do not read the passages quoted over in my now-moribund GD thread as not applicable to a sincere, covenanted, loving relationship between two gay people – if you like, we can get into that somewhere else. However, I do want to address one stringent passage – according to the New Testament, explicitly, we are all sinners and falling short of God’s righteousness, and the self-sacrifice of Christ atones for those sins – thanks to God’s compassionate love for us all. Because “our sins are covered,” the Law does not apply – and instead we are Christ’s, obliged to live the life He commands.

Your Ezekiel quote justifies you – that you warned others of their sin, so their blood is not on your hands. Hey, my sister, it never was – it’s on Christ’s. And His love is such that He seeks out the men you quote Scripture at to love them, to have them lie on His breast as John the Beloved Disciple did. And He, better than I ever could, understands what is in their heart – including the bitterness of those who seek caring and acceptance from you and other Christians, and get condemnation and Scripture quotes. (I know you are claiming not to condemn them – but the people who speak as you speak are also explicitly doing so – check out Donald Wildmon of the AFA, the Concerned Women of America, Gary Bauer, the Focus on the Family group, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Donald Vines, the Southern Baptist Convention…)

Perhaps you think that warning them of their sin is love. I hope so, for elsewhere on this board I’ve warned you of yours. And that is that the way in which you claim to be showing love is indistinguishable from condemnation in the eyes of those to whom your warning is addressed. If you hear nothing else from me, please hear that, and rethink how you do your witness.

BTW, God nowhere “condemns homosexuality.” In Leviticus, he appears to be condemning specific and defined acts; in Romans, to be visiting homosexual desire as a punishment on those who prefer things of the world to Him; in the Sodom story, according to two separate O.T. prophets and Jesus Himself, He is condemning the lack of charity and hospitality of the citizens of Sodom – and, of course, forcible anal gang rape as a part and parcel of that failure to love the stranger among them.

Nowhere does He speak in the command mode about two men loving each other and expressing that love physically – and the one time the Bible addresses that, it’s in words without a hint of condemnation.

167

I’ve given some thought to why you keep posting the “same old, same old” especially on the threads which you do. There are a number of possibilities that I’ve thought of

1/ Attention Seeking - What you write is so controversial that you have had more threads devoted to you and your opinions than any other doper I’ve seen! WOW! does no-one listen to you in real life and you use these groups to attract attention - to prove that you are really important?

2/ Do you have doubts about your own sexuality? Is this why you are always engaged in verbal gaybashing?

3/ In the bible it also says something like “Judge not, that you be not judged” and “Love one another” - so do you have so much Respect for your God that you choose to ignore these bits of what you say is “His Word” - do you put your own prejudices first?

4/ The God that you portray isn’t a “God of love” - he’s anything but!!! Do you think that you’re clocking up heavenly brownie points by sitting in front of your computer sending out these posts? Are you just trying to atone for your own sins by pointing out to God [who should know it already, of course!] that there are people around MORE sinful than you [“Please don’t smite me - they deserve it more”]

BTW I already have been told I’m going to Hell for being a Buddhist [my sister has beliefs similar to yours] She also tells me at every possible opportunity that my late husband is already burning in Hell. Just as well that, as a Buddhist, I don’t believe in your sort of Hell :slight_smile: So don’t bother to tell me - I’ve heard it ALL before.

168

Notice how Polycarp is not saying WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. He is not telling us what it says because, ultimately (and he’d rush to be first in line to tell you as much), he doesn’t know. That is one key thing separating you from him; he has his opinion of what the Bible says. You believe you have The One True Meaning from it.

Which of you is more effective in bringing God’s word and, more importantly, God’s love to His people? I know who’s high on my list, and I bet there’s a lot of other people on this board who share my deep respect and love for Polycarp.

I love you, man:)

169

I ask you to consider this, H4e. The problem with this line of reasoning is that it is shared by an extremely large number of Christians. A good number of these lovingly tell homosexuals that they are sinning and in grave danger of hellfire. The first time it is informative. The second time it is repetitive. The third time it is severely annoying. In other words, the good netizens of this board have for the most part heard it, most of them probably over and over and over again. Certainly you are trying to be loving and save the souls of us dopers from hellfire. I can’t speak for all human tendencies, but with me, the more you try to convince me that you’re right and my views are wrong, the more I will listen to you – up to a point. If you try to keep telling me I’m wrong past that point, eventually I get sick of it and run as far away as I possibly can.

Then what do we do if a homosexual is convinced that being homosexual is sinful? Polycarp brings up a really good point here:

From what I’ve known, and please correct me if this is totally off the wall, evangelical Christians would say that the only real way to change is through the power of Jesus Christ, and if one is truly born again, they will then be able to change through the power of Jesus, and not by their own human efforts. We’re getting into another ball of wax here, but what happens when someone is convinced that they are sinful but they do everything they humanly can to try to open themselves up to the saving grace of Jesus – and fail? What if a homosexual person becomes fully convinced that they are sinful and cannot change their sexual orientation? What then?

170

And I respectfully submit to you that this has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with what I posted. First of all, I am not a homosexual, so nothing I say about the current discussion has anything to do with me rationalizing my behavior and “twisting Scripture” to justify my “Sin.”

But nice attempt to completely miss the point.

I see nowhere in Scripture where it says that homosexuality is a “Sin.” Rather than me blathering on about that, please see the above post by Polycarp.

I do, however, see many MANY verses of Scripture which say “Judge NOT that YE be not judged,” or words to that effect, which was the whole point of my post. Along with the fact that the Bible also states that it is NOT our job to “convict” anyone else…it is our job to present the gospel with love. Spiritual conviction is the job of the Holy Spirit. Whom you are NOT, and never will be.

All of which you seem to have missed completely.

171

Yeah, like the Holy Spirit conviction that the world was created 6,000 years ago. Honey, your book is just a collection of myths and legends that have no purpose in the real world. Why on Earth should the folktales told by a pack of desert nomads thousands of years ago have any impact on rational people today? Given that, for one example, your co-religionists have used passages from Genesis–specifically, Noah cursing his son Ham for seeing him drunk and naked–to justify black slavery and then segregation, your brand of Biblical exegesis doesn’t stack up well in the morality/compassion department.

That’s a pack of disingenuous horseshit.

A. Your “truth” is not news; every gay person in America has had that fundamentalist “yer gwine to Ha-yul” crap tossed at him/her. Do you understand–WE’VE FUCKING HEARD IT!!

B. Calling us “abominations” is not love–love is hanging out and having dinner, as Polycarp did with several DC Dopers, including me. Love is being a friend, not a judge. Love is treating us like people, not a disease.

C. Listen. You love to preach AT people, but you never talk WITH people. You might want to close the mouth and open the ears–you might learn something.