October I understand what you are saying, but not having had any experience with people from the south my initial reaction was a bit of incredulity. A total stranger touches you in an inappropriate manner, making you feel unconfortable and you are worried about embarassment? You should be thinking about yourself first. That’s all.
About the boyfriend thing, maybe you are not much as a conversationalist, just really good looking? Wait, I’m kidding, I’m kidding, no fiery doom required please!
I speak here as a married guy in a polyamorous relationship who throws naked hot-tub parties at my home. “No” is ALWAYS a complete sentence, requires no explanation or justification, and is to be instantly respected.
This culture, unfortunately, fosters co-dependent attitudes in all of us—that is, we find ourselves trapped between what we need to do for our own safety and comfort and what others expect of us. We’re raised from birth steeped in an atmosphere of “don’t make a scene,” “don’t make waves,” “don’t embarrass someone else,” “be nice.” We have an aversion to being perceived as the bad guy, as stuck up or rigid or up-tight or a trouble-maker. This seems especially true for women.
Worse, this culture also fosters or at least encourages a predatory attitude among some men. For them, a woman is a bitch if she says no and a slut if she says yes. Among such men, silence is assumed to be consent; with a few, unfortunately, you need to kick them in the balls to make sure they heard you.
Within the social circles I travel in, casual nudity is common but not viewed as an invitation to have sex. Touching, hugging, flirting, even heavy petting in a group are all perfectly okay, but there are some ground rules understood by all:
NO under-18s.
DON’T shock the neighbors. (The police might not understand.)
ALL parties concerned must be okay with the activity.
Each person is responsible for setting his or her own
boundaries, and sticking by them. Those boundaries MUST be respected by all others involved.
October, I expect the creep in question would have fallen into one of two general categories. Either he was well-meaning but clueless and, because of his own past experience in a social group that accepted casual public sexual encounters, simply assumed that any woman in the setting you describe would enjoy and accept his advances; or he was a predator with alcohol-impaired inhibitions who assumed any woman in that setting was prey.
In the first instance, a firm “No!” or “Get your hand off my leg!” would probably have been sufficient. Whether you added the word “please” or tried moving your leg out of reach or colored your words with humor, disinterest, or anger all would depend on your take of the situation at the moment. As a well-meaning creep, he most likely WOULD have been embarrassed, and perhaps the rebuff would have been salutary. Next time, he might ask first.
In the second case, your silence would emphatically be taken as consent or even as a sign of enjoyment. A sharp “No!” from you might have encouraged the bastard to prowl elsewhere. If it did not, then spoiled party or no, you would have been completely within your rights to get out of the tub, complain to your host, and, if necessary, leave, period.
As for the creep’s wife, either she knew about her husband’s behavior—i.e. they were “swingers” in a poly relationship, or she did not. If the former, your rebuff would not have embarrassed her. If the latter, well, a good poly relationship and common sense both demand that BOTH partners be fully aware and in agreement about the rules of play. If the creep’s wife didn’t know, then they both needed a wake-up call. I agree with the sentiment expressed above: southern hospitality be damned.
For me, one of the most deeply troubling aspects of this society, an indication of a deep-seated sickness, in my opinion, is the bitch-slut dichotomy I mentioned earlier, coupled with the double standard that admires a swinging man as a “stud,” and brands a swinging woman as loose or fair game and a woman who sets boundaries and sticks by her guns as a bitch. It is not fair and it is not right. If you are forced to choose by this sick culture, allow me to encourage you to assume proudly the role of “bitch:”
B eautiful
I ntelligent
T alented
C harming
H ard-to-please
. . . and a good swift kick—figurative or literal, if necessary—to the privates of any man who does not respect your boundaries might teach the bastard the beginnings of respect.
I think the word you were looking for was schtupp. ;j But it’s funnier the way you said it.
When all else fails, pee on him. Guys will show respect when territory has been marked.
Dan, are you suggesting that I claim this guy as my own? Or have my significant other pee on me?
Green Bean: oops! I did indeed mean schtupp. I’m a southerner, remember? My Yiddish ain’t so great…
Maybe you could just pee in a circle around him. Such a circle would carry a message, and that message would be, “Beware!”*
[sub]*bonus points if anyone knows where I got this from[/sub]
My suggestion would be to politely excuse yourself. You don’t have to feign interest for the rest of the night, you don’t have to pretend anything. But I’ve had so many guys talk to me like I’m the only woman in the world for about 2 minutes, find out that I’m not available, and walk away in mid-conversation, with nary a good-bye, nice meeting you, please excuse me my pants are on fire - NOTHING! They just leave. Mid-sentence even.
Once I’d birthed my four babies and no longer looked like a Page Three girl, I thought my days of being accosted by jerks out of no where, who disappear back into the mist as soon as they find out my living arrangement, WERE OVER! Alas. This was not to be. Thanks to the wonders of the internet, the shallow can no longer judge me by my waistline, and it begins again. A profile that clearly states that I’m not available, and looking mostly for other mothers to chat with. Then IM’s out of the blue, all very chatty and not at all “being hit on”. Until they ask if I’m available. Then the IM’s stop without a word. I could respect a “I’m very sorry. I’m single, and was hoping to find likewise. It’s been pleasant talking, but I’m afraid I’m looking for more”. That would be fine. But being dumped mid-conversation OVER AND OVER AGAIN! It’s just rude! So I started answering new IM’s with “I’m not single. If you still want to chat, message me back.” And no one ever did. What a waste of time.
Uh… Lola… Wouldn’t it be much more of a waste of time if they kept on talking to you, trying to “convert” you into something they could play with? I would think that their leaving saved you time, not wasted it.
Accompanied by a whack on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper. 
HJay, Excellent advice.
I guess I originally posted this thread because I was frustrated by the boorish behavior, but mostly by my reaction to it.
Something very similar to the story in the OP happened to me a couple of weeks ago (only that incident involved a guy who thought his behavior was “gentlemanly,” and was honestly baffled that I was upset when he revealed how "peaceful and angelic I looked when I slept), and I was “nice” about it. I was disgusted with myself for not having been more direct about my uneasiness with such behavior. I swore that the next time something like that happened, I’d be vocal about it. So a couple of weeks later, something does happen, and what do I do? Nothing.
I swear, I’m going to snap one day and just start throwing their asses to the ground…but they might enjoy that. Ugh.
<victim to newsreporter: “but she always seemed so sweet and unassuming!”>
Swinger or not, that’s [Shrek]"UNWANTED PHYSICAL CONTACT![/Shrek]
So he thought she might be interested in a shag and gropes her in the hottub? What about bringing up swinging in conversation to test the waters? Who the hell just feels someone up because they’re sexually interested? I don’t think the fact that he’s a swinger explains Jack Schit about the situation at hand, and it’s all the more reason he should be told to keep his paws to himself. What a creepy bastard.
Ya, maybe his wife is a swinger as well, then it’s her fault. Or maybe he’s a pig. And maybe your attempt to not embarrass his wife have the exact opposite effect. Maybe she’ll feel bad for marrying him, or maybe she’ll feel worse because she was probably the only one at the party who wasn’t told, and she’s probably the only one who doesn’t understand why people don’t like to be around her husband, and everyone thinks she’s a stupid wife, or worse yet, that she’s a part of whatever perversion he’s into.
I dated a really nice looking woman, and she was hit on all the time, by married man and non-married men. The problem she had though, is that she would talk to these men about anything and everything. That creates an emotional bond that men will instinctively take as meaning she wants to sleep with them. So in some things, a woman does have to guard herself. But in this case, it sounds like the best thing you could do to stroke his ego is the exact thing you did. Can you really tell me you thought “Oh his poor wife there” when you felt is hand? Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying you did anything wrong, but I will say that guys like this are able to pick up on who will or will not react, and if they’ve done it enough, they can usually get away with it. But then it does become something that you’ve enabled by not standing up for what is right. You reward his bad with good (not stopping him, not saying anything…) why on earth will he ever stop.
<victim’s NEIGHBOR to newsreporter: “But she always seemed so quiet, kept to herself, such a NICE girl! . . .”>
So often we fall into patterns of behavior harmful to ourselves or others, patterns programmed into us by parents, school, childhood, a hundred other factors. Until we are aware of those patterns, they WILL bite us every time. One can swear up and down every street in town that it will never happen again . . . and then, bang. Same thing, only different.
The key, of course, is to spot the pattern, and perhaps to work on what put it there. Did your parents hammer at you about being “good?” About “not making a scene in public?” Whatever the case, knowing the pattern will help you spot future iterations.
Quote: "I guess I originally posted this thread because I was frustrated by the boorish behavior, but mostly by my reaction to it. "
All too often, there have been cases of rape where the victim did not cry out, did not say no, could do nothing, in fact, but paste a rather brittle smile on her face, which the attacker assumed meant consent. In fact, the victim was terrified; silence and smiling are culturally conditioned defense mechanisms we employ when we’re scared. But it NEVER means that the victim was at fault.
Please do NOT get mad or frustrated with yourself for missing it. You did nothing wrong, did not lead the guy on, did not put temptation in his path, did not handle the situation badly. You did what you thought best at the time. Next time, perhaps you’ll pick up on the pattern a bit sooner, and be able to react sooner.
And next time, give him a kick in the balls from me, too.
Now, I don’t run up against unwanted groping very much, but I think it’s a very usual reaction to be in such disbelief of an action that you do nothing.
Say someone hits me in the face. What’s my reaction? Obviously, you say, you give the bastard a bloody nose. Maybe kick 'em in the head for good measure. I’d like to think that, but it’s wrong. It depends on context. If I’m in a fight, or near a fight, or just plain angry with the world that day, then I’ll do my best to make sure you have very high hospital bills for your trouble. If I’m just walking down the street, or standing in line at the ballgame, or anywhere in New York, it’s quite likely your little face-punching experiment will cost you some teeth.
But say I’m sitting around a table having an amicable chat with some friends, and one of them just up and smacks me. I’m very likely to just look at them stupidly and say “What’s wrong with you?” Don’t believe me? Here’s a non-hypothetical example: imagine standing around in a tuxedo, carrying a very expensive stringed instrument, waiting to go on stage, chatting with a few of your fellow musicians, and another one walks up behind and hits you in the back of the head. What do you do? I know what I did: I turned to him and said “Did you just hit me?” He seemed quite surprised.
Perhaps some of you out there think you’d react differently, in one of my situations or in October’s. Maybe you’re even right. (I’m know October and I share a very similar cultural context, and in the case of this story even a physical one: I was within feet of the entire happenings.) But I know that the obvious reaction isn’t always the actual one.
And for the record, no, he didn’t grope me. I guess he doesn’t swing that far.
My cousin married a woman from Georgia(a small town outside of atlanta), and she asked me about my clothes, not knowing it is the style some people my age wear. It made me think how sheltered(bad choice of words I know) she was to outside the southern ways. Also I know about the southern tradion, but what I do not get is did your parents or anyone teach you to not protect yourself against physical misconduct? or did it get generalize with cheating husbands and avoiding scenes? A suggestion if anything similar ever happens is saying out loud “someone touched the part of my leg that has poison oak.” See if it gets a reaction out of him or maybe keep him from touching your leg. Also give him a peircing glare and shake your head no.
October, I was raised by British parents not to cause a stir or draw attention to myself, and that’s been to my detriment a few times. I’ve also hung out at HJay’s naked hot tub parties many times, and I’ll vouch for the fact that nothing untoward happened to me, and I’m looking forward to doing so again.
Here’s one suggestion which allows you to still be discrete and not make a stir. When a gentleman (used to replace a less-than-polite word) places his hand on your leg, make eye-contact with him. He’ll probably welcome this. Don’t smile at him; give him The LOOK, a variation on the if-you-don’t-cease-and-desist-immediately-you-will-be-in-trouble look parents give too children. Make sure The LOOK is frosty. Implication: “If you don’t remove your hand immediately, I will stop being polite and you won’t like it.” This should make him realize you know what he’s up to and you don’t approve, and get him to remove his hand for your leg. If it doesn’t, raise one eyebrow and tilt your head towards your wife. Implication: “What will your wife think if she finds out you’ve been behaving in a way which has made it necessary for me to behave very impolitely?” If that fails, change your look to your hostess. Implication: “Do you really want to have your behaviour known to everyone here?” The LOOK also gives you the option of a discrete one-on-one conversation later in which you explain why his attention was unwelcome.
I’m sorry you had such an unpleasant experience, and I understand the awkwardness.
CJ
That’s a great idea, Siege. If looks could kill…
. . . I’d be posting this from my jail cell! 
Thanks, dan.
CJ
I really don’t understand the swinging lifestyle. If and when I marry, I sure as hell don’t want anyone fucking my wife. To each their own, just seems weird to me.
I’ve seen Siege use The Look on deserving targets, Dantheman. The problem is limiting the collateral damage to scattered fires and cracked masonry. She’s good. . . .