From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

Third try.

I dated a woman back in June. Really liked her. We had a followup date (drink after work) that she had to cut short. She said she’d make it up to me, and I asked how. I would have settled for a meaningful kiss but she said we’d have a great date the following week. OK, cool!

I know she’s busy but even then, remembering the ex, I thought, ‘If it’s important, you’ll make time; if it isn’t, you’ll make excuses.’

She put the ball in her own court. She’s supposedly planning this date where she’s going to pay for everything, drive, etc. I didn’t call/email/text her because I figured when she had time, she’d let me know the plans. And I knew, from before we even had the initial date, that she had the following three weekends gone from extant plans (being out of town either for church or business).

In retrospect, maybe I should have dropped her a line in the intervening days, but even on the date, I didn’t think she was as into me as I was into her. And of course life intervenes. Other BS cropped up, but I honestly think I made my interest evident on the first date.

Since then whenever we communicated, I never mentioned the rain check date. Yet she always brings it up in one form or another. Tonight I realized that she’s already ruled it out for this week, which means even if we were to go out next week*, six weeks will have passed since I’ve seen her. To be completely honest, much as I like her, I gave up on her right around the 4th of July. Still, this little social scientist in me wants to know if she’ll be saying, in October, “Next week for sure!”

Damn, I really liked her, too. But unless something happens this week, that 1% chance is gone.

I don’t get it. She doesn’t want to stop bringing up the charade that says we’re going to go out again.

It’s a helluva lot more complicated than this. I’m on my third draft here. That means 1) I wrote this three times, and 2) I’m on my third beer.

I’m working on this scenario that goes something like this:

Her: Let’s get together next week.
Me: That’s not going to happen.

[Misdirection where she thinks I mean she’s not going to fulfill her promise again]

Me: No, I mean that I don’t want to go out with you any more. Maybe a month ago I would have been happy. But I mean, is there a point to seeing someone who only has time for me every six or eight weeks?

*I wouldn’t say it to her, but I know: she could call and ask me to come over and fuck her brains out, and I wouldn’t go. A circuit breaker has tripped in my brain and there’s no resetting it.

Great title: Mundane Pointless Stuff I Must Share. I wonder what other dopers will post…what tells you that you have crossed a point of no return?

2

Been there, done that. There comes a certain point where the interest is gone.

My own experience: She blew off our first date to do something “more fun”. What a relationship killer right there. Then she kept talking about a relationship, but never seemed to find the time. When I finally said “No, sorry, no longer interested in a relationship with you”, she acted all hurt and upset.

For me, the realization was that it was a fucking lot of work with no fucking, and no relationship. That if it was that much of a bother just getting things started, it wasn’t going to get any better. That and I kept thinking about that first date blow-off. ‘“More fun” than a date with me’ kept echoing through every excuse and every delay, killing my interest in her.

3

WAG.

She wants you to call her bluff and end it. That way she absolves herself of the responsibility that she screwed up and can blame it on you. She will probably articulate the blame to her friends so you will end up being the cad in absentia.

Don’t giver her the satisfaction. Get her to commit, one way or the other.

4

My thoughts follow but not exactly.

At one point, she could have let it lapse into nothingness. Not that she knew it, but I had already accepted it. We don’t really run in mutual circles much, so assigning blame seems unimportant.

My best WAG is that she likes having someone interested in her. I’ve met many many women that I found very attractive who, believe it or not, did not reciprocate. I understand that. What I don’t understand is why she perpetuates this myth.

I think in some sociology class a prof told us that every human interaction has a payoff and I don’t see it here. Maybe she never gets attention from guys and would like to think she could snap her fingers and have a date? I dunno.

I kinda wish I could switch to “robot mode” where I could just play this out as far as she would like. Typing it all out, though, I guess the reason for posting is just that my intelligence has been insulted.

ETA @ Duck: I’m not sure what she screwed up because I don’t think she was all that interested in the first place.

5

Hmmmph. I was engaged to be married 20 years ago, to a recording engineer.

One year ago, he looked me up on the net. We started writing & phoning; long story short, he came out to visit me two days ago, Saturday. (He was out here for family concerns, just across the bay.)

I had told him up front that I had a prior committment to a show my best friend had booked, but I would only be gone a couple of hours. He said he was fine with that. I made him dinner, got him situated, etc. Just before I had to leave, I said, “Well, how do I look?”

He said, “Oh, fab-oo!” (“fab-oo”? gimme a break.)

So I said, “Do you answer every question sarcastically?” – because he had been.

He said, “No, sometimes I answer facetiously.” Right.

So we had a little talk about how sarcasm is a way of avoiding vulnerability and deflecting genuine conversation, etc. etc. I felt that I had gotten through, and that we understood each other. And then I said, “Let’s start again, okay? How do I look?”

He said, “I don’t know how to answer that question.” :smack:

The man is 50 years old. He has been married twice. He does too know how to answer that question!!

That’s when I remembered… this is why I left him.

6

One my disconnects is that I don’t lead on women whom I have no interest in. If a woman acts interested and I know I’m not, it makes me uncomfortable. It doesn’t do anything for my ego and even if it did, that wouldn’t justify it. Manipulating other people is nowhere.

She mentioned attending a function this weekend; I was already signed on for it and won’t back out of it. I’ll try to act normal for that, but next week, all bets are off. I’m working up some firm-but-not-rude responses for next time.* Emails and text messages I can ignore. Phone calls may trip me up. I don’t have caller ID but I can screen calls via the answering machine. Still, if I answer before thinking I may find myself talking to her.

I don’t want to pursue a friendship with her, either, in part for the same reason I don’t want to date her: she’s allegedly never available. But also, I don’t think it’s cool to lead others on…I don’t think I’d be friends with a guy who liked to lead on women, either. There’s a deeper dishonesty, self-absorption, exploitation of other human beings, an all-too-willing-to-dump-you-if-a-better-offer-comes-along attitude…these don’t make for good character traits in a friend, either.

*I’m not saying there will be a next time. I won’t contact her again, certainly, and it’s possible she’ll let it slide. She hasn’t let it go yet, however, so I think I need to be prepared…that’s just how this nerd rolls.

I imagine the convo and I realize how freaking polite I am. For instance, “I would prefer not to date you,” is wrong for the situation. It could sound like I’m not sure what I want or that she could persuade me or something.

ETA from another thread: this is precisely the sort of conversation that ends without me saying any form of “goodbye.” Something like, “I’ve got to go” followed by a second of silence and a click—that’s how this one ends.

7

Are you me? No, you can’t be. I’m me. But you’re suspiciously similar.

8

Condolences! :smack: :wink: :frowning: :stuck_out_tongue:

9

Question for guys…

What is the perfect balance between “never available” and “clingy”? I’ve heard complaints from guys about women who are both, and I never seem to get it right as to which way they prefer me to be. Do they want to see me every night or do they think I’m cool if I’ve got a life outside of them? Do they want to see me every night now, at the beginning, so they can blow me off later into the relationship? If I call them am I clingy but if they call me am I “available”?

I don’t get it. That’s why I like being single right now. Easier on my schedule.

10

Why not just say something like “I don’t think that’s a good idea” if she brings it up again? Perhaps she’ll ask why and then you can say something like “it sounds to me like you’re really busy right now. Relationships shouldn’t play second fiddle to everything else in someone’ life.”

Or just don’t call her etc. I dunno–this is one of those things where it’s hard to read her motive: is she being passive aggressive, controlling or just clueless? No idea. Sorry you’re going through this, though.

11

I’d probably go with:
Her: “We’ll go on that date that I promised you soon”
Him: “That’s OK”
Her:“What?”
Him: " That’s OK, don’t worry about it. We haven’t done that date now for six weeks, I don’t think we’re going to, and, well, that’s alright. We don’t have to go on a followup date, and I’m not sure we even really want to."

That would be my approach.

12

Yeah, I think something like this only shorter, colder. I’ll change some things, e.g.:

OK—I don’t want to leave the possibility that I’m just an understanding fellow. It isn’t “OK.”

Don’t worry about it.—Actually, I’d like her to reflect on it and suffer appropriately.

I’m not sure we even really want to.—I’m sure I wanted to. I’m sure she didn’t want to (or didn’t want it enough). I’m sure I don’t want to go out any more, also.

IMO she really wouldn’t want to push me for an explanation. This is a funeral, not an ER resuscitation.

Thanks for the thoughts, eleanor and here’s something that’s been kicking around in my brain for awhile:

In 1995, my marriage was on its last legs. A good friend of mine was also watching his go down the toilet, and we used to compare notes all the time.

My ex, my friend, and the woman in question in this thread have something in common: they’re all in management.

One day I was telling my friend about something the wife had said and he replied, “She’s managing you.” I think, in retrospect, that he was saying something along the lines of: *This is how we managers treat our subordinates. There’s lip-service or other ways of calming people down etc., but we’re maintaining a professional detachment when we do it…we’re NOT emotionally involved when we’re in management mode. We’ll slap a managerial band-aid on it, pat you on the head, and hope you don’t press the issue. When your wife does this, there’s no chance anything is truly being solved because she hasn’t bought into the situation on an emotional, truly interpersonal level. She’s just putting out fires without addressing root causes or opening herself up to change. *

IOW I think the woman in my OP is managing me…only I have NEVER taken her to task in any way, shape, or form about this. Let’s rewind…

June. We had a nice date. I contacted her for a drink after work. She said that day was bad but how about Thursday? Sounds good, see you at 6:30.

I was there at the appointed time and day. At 6:30, almost on the nose, my cell phone rang. “I’ve had a last-minute situation and I’m going to be late.” OK. I knew she works 5-10 minutes from there and thought she’d be 5-10 minutes late, but I think that’s probably a false conclusion on my part.

At 7:00 I called her. My opening words were, “Are you okay?” I’m not one to jump down someone’s throat. Worst case scenario, she’s been in a fender bender en route and is bleeding from the head. Not that I think it’s likely, but I’ll obey Murphy’s Law. She said she was fine and on her way.

At 7:10 she shows up. She explains what happened and says she has to go back. She says I can go back with her, wait for her at work and when she finishes, we’ll get that drink. Or, she can have the drink but can’t stay long. I let her choose; we have a drink. This “date” lasts ten minutes and for five of those ten, she’s answering business-related cell phone calls. She finishes her drink, says she’ll make it up to me.*

“Really? What do I get?” I’m thinking I’d settle for a kiss. Instead she says we’ll have a nice time next week.

“A nice time?” Inside, I’m thinking, woo hoo!

“OK, a really nice time.” Inside, I’m realizing she didn’t think that was good enough but I’m not going to shoot myself in the foot by confessing that. She leaves.

9:00 PM she calls me at home, says she just finished at work, and continues apologizing. I’m Mr. Totally Mellow, I understand, maybe one of these days I’ll be stuck in traffic, yadda. She reiterates that the problem was, she’d promised to do this work and felt honor-bound to keep her word, but the request came in as she was getting ready to leave. Skipping out on it would have cost the company a contract and she REALLY appreciated my understanding.

So back to the business model: people like my ex would have been the SAME way. However, they don’t always make same commitments to their personal lives. I.e. keeping a commitment at work, sure, you don’t want to lose the business…keeping a commitment to me, not necessarily…I’m “understanding” and as we all know, it’s the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.

Or as LaRochefoucauld said, “We make promises according to our hopes; we keep them according to our fears.”

*I don’t believe in the “I’ll make it up to you” thing. I mean, I recognize it as a token gesture and all, but there is no real making up what has been missed. E.g. I had driven 30 minutes there and 30 minutes back. I had sacrificed other plans etc. I’m not trying to be a PITA about this, but I do want to assert that people who invoke the “I’ll make it up to you” response are apt to abuse it, IME. And what’s worse of course is that she still hasn’t “made it up” to me.

13

She must be smoking hot for you to even still be thinking about her.

14

Well, she’s 55. I think she’s attractive but not likely to become a cover girl obviously. I like being around her. She smiles and laughs a lot and brings out my inner goofball.

Ah well.

15

Sorry, i don’t get it. What was wrong with his first answer? Edit: i assume he meant fabulous

16

I had a friend who did that a lot. If I talked about how my church choir would be singing at that Sunday’s services, she’d exclaim that she’d be there to hear me. If there was a class I wanted to take, she’d announce that she’d take it with me. And on and on.

She never made it. Well, once, and that was, I think, because I got a commitment in writing from her, and she was still twenty minutes late.

All I can think is that she got genuine pleasure from saying things that made me happy, but then she couldn’t get her shit together enough to be anywhere on time. I also think there was a very large chunk of passive-aggressive power play going on. She could, without even trying, spoil the fun. Just by not showing up.

I finally gave up on her about a year ago. Beginning of this summer, I dated a guy who started doing that - promising to come hear me sing and then not showing up - and I read him the riot act. It worked, but his passive-aggressive tendencies showed up in other places, and I broke up with him after six weeks of dating.

Unless you feel like giving her the annotated lecture notes of why she’s being an idiot, I’d say just let her go. It will bite her in the ass - as it’s already done by losing your interest.

17

Just turn the tables on her. Accept her calls, and always be polite, but offer her nothing. If she says “We’ll get together soon”, just say “OK, that sounds good”, but don’t commit to anything. If she offers a concrete time, so sorry, you have plans for that night. And no, you don’t owe her an explanation.

18

@phouka: See, that would be a concern for me…having been weirded out by your “friend,” you exploded at the guy you were dating. I’m not saying he didn’t deserve it etc. b/c it sounds like he did. But it’s important not to let the past poison the present. Learning from mistakes is great; it’s a fine line, though, not being enslaved by them and you wouldn’t want to destroy something viable.

@phouka & tdn: I’m exaggerating for effect of course but the best solution seems to be to identify the bullshit early on and opt out before your psyche gets damaged.

@tdn: I think you’d agree that the number 1 concern is that any “breakup” should be on my terms, not hers. Continuing the charade leaves the possibility of her deciding it instead of me, which doesn’t appeal.

Also, I’m not much on revenge, since it doesn’t get me nearer to my goal. So that leaves not sinking to her level.

But yeah…it’s tempting!

19

Don’t. It’s not as much fun as it sounds.

20

IMHO, it’s sort of like when you hang out with your friends – too much and everyone gets sick of each other, too little and everyone misses each other. People have lives before, during, and after relationships – it’s necessary that SO’s understand that. And of course, it depends on where you’re at in the relationship. After the first date, I’d hope to get a call or have a call well received pretty soon after, but I probably don’t really want to talk to you every night. If we’ve been seeing each other for six months, well, I hope that we’re talking with regularity. I suppose that’s a long winded way to say “it depends,” but hey, everyone’s different.