…are you simply incapable of believing that there might be something else at play here than “grievance”?
The truth that most people here don’t want to admit is that the Biden administration was complicit in genocide.
77% of Democrats think that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, and 75% think they should stop funding that genocide.
Only 11% of Democrats don’t think Israel is committing genocide. Are you part of that 11%?
I can absolutely guarantee you that we are never going to forget who was complicit in the genocide of the Palestinian people and we will never ever forget the people who were silent about it.
Then stop complaining about the “leftist purists”. They weren’t responsible for the Democrats losing the last election.
Arguments stand or fall on their own merits, but I feel like some participants in this thread are not eligible to vote in the United States. That gives me the vibe of “let me poke you guys while I stay aside”, and without living the context most American voters have.
But the system that tolerates Nazis is a system that will end up being run by Nazis, is what the history shows. So, a distinction without a difference.
“Equivocation”? Are you using a strange definition of the word that I’m not familiar with?
Equivocation is the use of ambiguous, vague, or double-meaning language to deceive an audience or avoid committing to a clear stance
There was nothing “ambiguous, vague, or double-meaning” there. There was no intent to “deceive an audience” and her stance is perfectly clear to anyone with two functional neurons to toss signals between.
But she didn’t use the magic words you demand so that makes her equivalent to a fascist
I guess that’s worth losing USAID over! It’s worth putting the Trump admin in charge of trans rights! I guess that’s another “desperate gamble”.
In what timeframe? If the nazi rise to power had been delayed for longer, my grandma and her family might have been able to get to America. As it was they desperately managed to smuggle themselves into Holland and as a result my grandma spent WWII in hiding and her parents died in the camps.
ETA it’s also possible for the milquetoast nazi-tolerators to last long enough that instead of eventually being usurped by actual nazis they are usurped by a stronger antifascist movement that meaningfully resists the nazis. If the nazis are allowed to rise to power you just give up this opportunity.
I’m talking about a specific consequence of one election.
If you go back to the election that made Hitler chancellor, and more people had voted for Hitler’s opposition and all of those parties had been willing to form a “not nazi” bloc, Hitler’s rise to the chancellorship would have been delayed. Just that potential result is enough of a reason to take simi actions in any orher election where a nazi is at risk of winning. Voting in elections has no direct influence on anythingcelse that might topple a future fascist regime but at a bade level delaying the fascist’s rise is enough.
Also, South Korea is currently throwing the book at the fascists who tried to declare martial law a couple years ago. That’s closer to a liberal democracy waking up to the need to fight fascism than any scenario im aware of where antifascists got results by sitting out the vote.
Once the Palestinians and their supporters are all dead, it will be forgotten and they will likely be erased from the history books. Letting Trump get into power was supporting their own probably future executions, just like what happened to the Communists who thought letting Hitler into power was a good idea.
I’ll continue condemning their willingness to lose the last election, and I’ll even more energetically condemn the craven position of using this threat for bluffing power and then cowardly disclaiming that they had any hand in the loss. It’s so pathetic to go into the election saying “we’re willing to throw this thing” and come out of saying “um, you can’t blame us, we weren’t that effective.”
That doesn’t mean that 77% of Democrats feel that it should make up 100% of the platform or take up 100% of the oxygen of the campaign. And it shouldn’t. It’s a domestic political party that also has to press a domestic political agenda, and a big part of it is wresting power from Republicans who, lest we forget, did everything in their power to help Israel even more.
If you sat out the last election because you wanted genocide, congratulations, you clowned yourself. At best you had zero effect, at worst you got yourself more genocide, and all the mental yoga in the world doesn’t change the fundamental fact that you fucked up catastrophically. You own that.
This sentiment may be inappropriate for the Pit, but personally I can’t really be mad at either the anti-Trump Harris voters (of whom I was one) or the anti-Trump Harris refuseniks. Being appropriately mad at the pro-Trump voters keeps me plenty busy.
That said, though I don’t condemn anyone for voting their conscience and not pulling the lever for Harris due to outrage over the Gaza genocide, I think it’s a bit of a cop-out to assume that the Biden/Harris administration could realistically have done anything very different. And it’s ducking our own share in the complicity, as individuals in a nation and a political party.
The Biden/Harris facilitation of Israeli war crimes wasn’t some shocking spontaneous dereliction of ethical duty on the part of top political leaders: it was chickens coming home to roost for Americans and Democrats in general. For decades and decades, the US and US Democrats have failed to push back strongly against Israeli oppression of Palestinians, or to speak up assertively for Palestinian human rights. We have built entire political structures, including massive fundraising machines, around toleration and acceptance of Israel’s apartheid-like treatment of Palestinians, and even if we didn’t really approve of it we shrugged and voted for Democrats anyway.
So it was never realistic to expect that the Democratic establishment leadership would suddenly grow a functional spine about this in 2024, just because Israel dialed their policies up to 11 in the wake of the Hamas attacks. And dumping all our outrage on the Democratic leadership is largely a self-soothing maneuver to allow us to avoid looking in the mirror. The reason I object to epithets like “Genocide Kamala” is not so much that they’re inaccurate as that they distract us from confronting the reality of “Genocide @Kimstu” or “Genocide @LHoD” (sorry dude, not singling out you personally, just another one of the many very very minor contributors to the shared responsibility of all of us).
…do you condemn Biden and his administration for being complicit in genocide?
You know most of them voted for Harris, right?
It means they think Israel is committing a genocide and that America should stop funding it.
So what exactly does " make up 100% of the platform or take up 100% of the oxygen of the campaign" actually mean?
Uncommitted wanted to speak at the convention. They wanted Harris to talk to families. They wanted her to push for a ceasefire. That isn’t 100%. That’s like…1% or maybe 2% at most.
I’m hearing the very same arguments in the trans threads. That the Dems shouldn’t talk about trans people because it would have taken up 100% of the campaign when really what people wanted was simply the ability to just speak frankly on the issue. How hard is it to say “trans women are woment, trans rights are human rights, and this administration pledges to protect them?” Why instead say rediculous things like “We will follow the law?”
What does “even more” even mean? Do you think I don’t know that the Republicans are ALSO complicit in the genocide of the Palestinian people? Of course they are.
And it’s a domestic issue because America is funding and supporting the perpetrators of this genocide in the realm of billions of dollars. Imagine if those billions instead went to the American people. Wouldn’t they be better off?
If people wanted genocide, all they had to do was vote for either of the two major parties. It was genocide either way.
I personally think Harris fucked up by refusing to condemn the genocide. It’s not as if it would be that hard to do. Just say the words.
Can you say that? Do you condemn the genocide of the Palestinian people? Do you condemn the Biden administration for being complicit in the genocide of the Palestinian people?
We didn’t forget the Holocaust. People will not forget the genocide of the Palestinian people.
Because this was the first “live-streamed” genocide. Do you think we will ever forget what we have seen? I watched 15 paramedics get murdered in cold blood. I was the lifeless body of Sidra Hassouna, stripped of all dignity, mutilated, legs torn off, just hanging from the top point of the roof while in America they cheered for the Super Bowl.
All funded and paid for in part by the smug arseholes in this thread who don’t want to admit they are turning a blind eye.
They’ve already tried to take down sites like this:
Their original host took them down. They are attempts to hack them daily. There are now multiple mirrors and backups.
‘We will not forget’ means we will not forget anyone.
Just because you are a cold, heartless bastard that only thinks about yourself doesn’t mean that we all are.
They didn’t let Trump into power. The rise of the alt-right is a global phenomenon and didn’t start at the last election. And many, if not most of them, unlike you, did vote for Harris.
I had another post I was going to make, but I guess I need to respond to @Kimstu’s post above before I do.
I very much disagree with your reframing. I think it fails when it treats this as “turning it up to 11,” rather than acknowledging that a line was crossed. And if the American people can notice that line, so can their government.
While said government is restrained by past actions, it still has an obligation to try what it can. And those running for office have the obligation to make this part of their messaging. I give Biden some (relatively small) credit for trying to negotiate for peace and to stop the worst of Netanyahu’s actions. But he didn’t handle the messaging well. Harris failed on both counts, making the message “This does not matter, and if you keep talking about this, you’re helping Trump win.”
And voting does not make one complicit. That ignores my central tenant that you are always voting for the lesser of evils in a democracy. Complicity is far more nuanced. And, frankly, once you know the right action to take, guilt over past actions is a waste of time.
Banquet Bear sat out the last election because he’s a foreign provocateur who has absolutely nothing to do with elections in America, not because of his stance on this or any other issue.
