I feel like the term “red wedding” being bandied about here, on fb, etc. spoiled the episode a bit for me. I don’t think the term “red wedding” was used explicitly in the show at all. At first I was trying to figure out which wedding would be red but there was just too much convenient happy going on in this episode for it not to be red.
He seemed pretty happy about it after he lifted the veil off. I assume he was spared since technically he was a Tully and hadn’t wronged anyone outright, but maybe as an ally of the Starks he was also chopped. I asked the same question a few posts ago to no further speculation.
They’d fight him ANYWAY–there really isn’t a difference. No one is going to say “Hmm, I’d have followed the Stark bastard if ONLY he hadn’t forsaked his oath to the Nightswatch.” Anyone who would go after him for leaving the watch would also be after him for leading a rebellion.
If ever there was a reason to get a pass on going AWOL, it’s your father getting wrongfully executed for treason, your home getting sacked and your brother being betrayed and murdered by his own Bannermen.
You asked why anyone in the North would give a shit what he thinks, and I told you, he’s got the largest army, the support of the Lannisters and the Iron Throne, and he’s probably holding all northern lords who was at the wedding and survived hostage too, except for the Karstarks who Robb pissed off by removing Lord Karstark’s head, that’s why they should give a shit about what Lord Bolton thinks.
The original statement which prompted the comment about the North not caring about what Bolton thought was this, by you:
My response to that is that those in the North, seeing Lord Bolton as an oathbreaker, traitor, and the murderer of their King in the North, don’t give two shits about what Bolton would think about Jon Snow making a case for inheriting the North despite breaking his vows. Of course Bolton wouldn’t support such a claim. But if I put myself in the place of a loyal Stark Bannerman, what do I care what Bolton thinks about the situation or who he supports? I would certainly care about Bolton as a threat, yes, but not as someone from whom I need to seek approval.
One of the first orders of business if Jon Snow DID assert such a claim, might be “how do we make those treasonous Boltons pay for what they’ve done?”
Does he have the largest army though?
Seems like his army was represented by one piece on Robb’s playmat, while the Wolfheads made up the rest…who are THOSE armies loyal to now?
First of all, I think a lot of those wolfshead pieces are gone, now. Second, those lions on the map? I think it’s safe to assume those need now be considered when discussing the power of Roose Bolton.
Speaking of, I love the catchphrase that’s making its way around the internet: The Roose is Loose!
If Bolton’s teaming up with Frey, I would think their army would be pretty big. Didn’t Robb say he lost half his force when the Karstarks left and to replace them he would need the Frey’s?
The fact is that if Lannister, Bolton, the Karstarks, and Frey have all the small lords in their pockets, then there is no one left to fight in memory of the Starks. All of the great lords who weren’t in on the betrayal were themselves killed at the wedding.
The small folk might be outraged at what went down and they might have preferred the rule of Lord Stark, but they don’t have the motivation or ability to do anything about it, especially with the ravages of the war, and, well, with Winter Coming, they’re going to struggle just to survive.
Most of Westeros – except Dorne in the south – doesn’t produce any food in winter and hunting becomes scarce. The war and the weather have interfered with the harvest. Resisting Bolton might no longer be physically possible.
Because Jon Snow is a bastard who has no legal claim to begin with, who bring absolutely nothing on his own, and by supporting Jon Snow you would make Lord Bolton your enemy. So unless you think you can pick a fight with Bolton&Co and win, supporting Snow would most likely get you flayed alive.
How many of those loyal to the Starks were at the Twins celebrating the wedding and got caught drunk in the ambush? How many lords and lords’ sons were there and taken hostage?
You’re absolutely right. It was the best decision he could make, strategically, in the situation he found himself in. I just think it’s ironic that the price of saving his skin is destroying any chance for the things he wanted out of the original Stark contract.
WANTED: Musicians/crossbowmen for entertainment and multiple assassinations. Should be up on wedding marches, Rains of Castamere, have no moral problems with killing women and unarmed men, and some knowledge of good dance standards. Prepare to play 32 bars and shoot a small pig at audition.
Then imagine the wedding planner: “Cue the band, Papa brings Baby down the aisle, shoots shit-eating grin, ‘Me cloak you long time’ and Father Mother Warrior Crone Smith Professor and Mary Ann I take thee yadda yadda’, then I’m thinking the fish course, a chocolate fountain, some west country jigs, maybe an exotic dance remix from the east, then the bedding, the surprise slaughter for which you Lord Walder will sit here and you Lady Frey should be behind his chair because being under the table would just be begging to be taken hostage, I think you should be sure to seat the Queen of the North here as it will be easier to triangulate when her husband comes to the rescue, and then some nice lime sherbert as a not too heavy follow up while the cleaning crews flood the floor before the bloodstains set in.”
The more I think about it, the less likely it seems - Jon *already *had his big “duty vs. personal stuff” test, back when Ned, the father he truly loved and idolized, died ignominiously. He faltered, but in the end he came back to the Watch, because he’s not a Stark, he’s a Crow.
What has changed ? A mother figure that openly scorned him died, and his estranged brother too. Big whoop. Their fight was not his - among all the surviving characters, Jon’s the least likely to be interested in the dick waving contest over the Iron Throne. He’s one of the few who knows there’s a whole lot more at stake right now. The boy’s seen things you people wouldn’t believe… attack horses in a spiral off the Fist of the First Men… He’s seen blue eyes glitter in the dark at Castle Black’s Gate…
And Walder Frey is a vassal of Riverrun, though an extremely rich and powerful one. (There were, many times in history and in several places, vassals who were as rich and powerful or moreso than their lords; probably the most famous example would be Henry II of England whose lands in France were all held as a vassal of the French king even though twixt him, his wife, and their children and due to the revenues from England they were richer by far and ruled more of France than the French monarchy.)