Game of Thrones 3.09 "The Rains of Castamere" 6/2/13 No book spoilers

[alphaboi867]

@SecretaryofEvil

Very well done, but so brutal it was hard to watch.

I did take great delight in how practical Bolton’s sliminess was. Walder Frey offered him his wife’s weight in silver as a dowry, so Bolton married the fattest Frey girl…

I’m confused as to why the Lord Frey had such a problem marrying off his daughters. :dubious: Yeah, most of them were plain looking, but none of them were hideous and he can apparently afford generous dowries. They all looked to be still of (or approaching) childbearing age. And obviously he has at least one son, or else he’d be overwhelmed with marriage proposals for his eldest daughter at least no matter what she looked like.

@Bridget_Burke

It appears that Robb was killed because Tywin Lannister wanted him dead. Bolton & Frey wanted Lannister gold–& to be on the winning side. The broken betrothal provided Frey’s excuse. But I wonder whether treacherously breaking the bond of hospitality is a worse crime. (Bread & salt are meaningful in several Earth cultures.)…

He openly & and violently violated the sacred law of Guest Right after performing explicitly welcoming the Starks in a public ceremony invoking the Seven. Not even Tywin Lannister would do openly do that. The hierarchy of the Faith will be furious, although they don’t seem to have much power (but it’s still very important for the royal family to have a good relation with them).

@AK84

…I wonder if they will simply drop the “Joffery of House Baratheon” angle and simply declare a Lannister dynasty.

That would be tantamount to publically admitting Cersei & Jaime’s incest, which nobody involved would ever do. Plus I doubt Joffrey’s aware the rumours are true.

@Acsenray

Who said Gendry is a potential claimant? I don’t think there’s any chance of that…

He’s not; Cersei had all of Robert’s bastards killed because they all had dark hair and that made her children’s blonde hair look highly suspicious.

@AClockworkMelon

It’s not an odd thing for him to say at all. The North is huge, it’s almost as big as the rest of the seven kingdoms combined, and it’s populated like the rest of Westeros…

But it’s not populated like the rest of Westeros. It still has lords bannermen underneath the Starks, but the population & population density are much lower than in the South. Winterfell is a lot more isolated than the other regional capitals are.

@Joey_Tightlips

Did they show the groom after he got carried off for the bedding? Are we to presume he was murdered as well, or could he have been in on it? I know he was none too happy with Rob forcing him to marry against his will.

No we didn’t. It’s a shame; I was really looking forward to seeing Tobias Menzies naked again.

@Acsenray

…Most of Westeros – except Dorne in the south – doesn’t produce any food in winter and hunting becomes scarce. The war and the weather have interfered with the harvest. Resisting Bolton might no longer be physically possible.

I’ve always wondered just what Westerosi cannibalism taboos are like.

@Acsenray

If there was no inheritance through daughters then marrying powerful men’s daughters would not be a common bargaining chip. Sansa has any cache at all because she is now – so far as anyone knows – the heir to Winterfell…Most important, if tradition is Salic then Daenerys would never be taken seriously. Once her brothers are dead, she’s no threat. Remember, Robert feared her son before he heard about dragons.

As I said, none of this is definitive, biiy the case for this kind if succession is far stronger than it is for Salic succession.

Male-preference primogeniture is an Andalish custom & the norm in Westeros. That’s why Sansa’s such a match (everyone thinks her little brothers are dead). What the Targaryens practiced was basically semi-Salic law, which means that females can only inherit upon the death of all male dynasts and the extinction of the male line. That’s why Daenerys can be the pretender to the Iron Throne under Targaryen house law; all the men in her family are dead (save an elderly maester in the Night’s Watch).

In most noble houses the eldest daughter does get to inherit if she doesn’t have any brothers. Which of course means her husband gains her title & control over her lands jure uxoris, and is probably true for a hypothetical queen-regnant as well. Of course being the Queen she may be able modify that particular rule and just make her husband a mere king-consort.

@Sampiro

Tywin told Tyrion that he will never be lord of Casterley Rock even though Jaime can’t inherit, implying it will either go to one of Cersei’s children (either the ones she has now or if she marries/has issue with Loras) or to Tywin’s brother, so apparently a lord (at least a very powerful one) can choose an heir and isn’t completely bound by inheritance laws.

I wonder if a Lord Paramount can unilaterally disinherit his heir, or what kind of a pretext he needs. IIRC Tywin wished he’d had enough evidence to declare Tyrion a bastard (would also mean defiling his late wife’s name). Granted I’m sure Tywin of all people would be able to find some loophole. If all else fails I’m sure Joffrey wouldn’t mind the Lordship of Casterly Rock merging with the crown. Not that his opinion really matters.

@AClockworkMelon

Even if Jaime is bi, I get the feeling Loras is never fucking Cersei.

Loras can fuck Jaime while Jaime is fucking Cersei. I’d kill to see that scene. Preferably without Cersei.

@Sampiro

I wonder which of the five stages of grief Lord Walder will be in for his wife next week…

Until Catelyn said it I thought that was one of his daughters. :eek:

@Sampiro

…The surprising thing is that Littlefinger, Edmure, Tyrion (not counting his brief marital misadventure) and all those Frey girls wouldn’t already have been married or at least betrothed.

Littlefinger’s bachelorhood is unusual, but he wasn’t much of a match until he made his fortune and worked his way up to Master of Coin. Plus there’s the hold being madly in love with Catelyn ever since puberty thing.

[Gukumatz]

[Ramsay]If you thought this was going to have a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention…[/Ramsay]

[HazelNutCoffee]

@DigitalC

No, the kidnapping caused the war. Tywin told Cersei he started a war over “that lecherous little imp” so what did she think he would do over Jamie. Beheading Ned ended any chance of a peace settlement, but did not start the war.

You’re right, my bad.

I still think that most of the blame is Joffery’s. Even if Cat hadn’t kidnapped Tyrion, Ned still would have been beheaded.

[mr.jp]

Am I the only one who thinks the Stark clan is not much better than The Lannisters? Cat just killed an (almost certainly) innocent girl to no gain as her last deed. Joffrey is a terrible psychopath obviously, but thats not really their fault, they had no choice but to make him king. And Tywin can control him better.

[Dewey_Finn]

It’s kind of late, but I was wondering about the “bedding ceremony.” Is it simply that the bride and groom are carried off to the newlywed suite, or is it more than that?

[DigitalC]

@alphaboi867

I’m confused as to why the Lord Frey had such a problem marrying off his daughters. :dubious: Yeah, most of them were plain looking, but none of them were hideous and he can apparently afford generous dowries. They all looked to be still of (or approaching) childbearing age. And obviously he has at least one son, or else he’d be overwhelmed with marriage proposals for his eldest daughter at least no matter what she looked like.

I think the problem was mostly trying to marry above his station, like to the lord of Riverrun. The family certainly looks large enough, they can’t all be the old farts children.

[DigitalC]

@Dewey_Finn

It’s kind of late, but I was wondering about the “bedding ceremony.” Is it simply that the bride and groom are carried off to the newlywed suite, or is it more than that?

The bride was carried off by the males and the groom by the females, they were also being undressed piece by piece.

[Dewey_Finn]

I thought maybe they dragged the wedding bed right into the banquet hall so that everyone could witness the “consummation”.

By the way, I seem to remember that some real-life societies checked the bridal bed for blood. Am I imagining that or did some society really do that?

[Tamerlane]

@mr.jp

Am I the only one who thinks the Stark clan is not much better than The Lannisters? Cat just killed an (almost certainly) innocent girl to no gain as her last deed. Joffrey is a terrible psychopath obviously, but thats not really their fault, they had no choice but to make him king. And Tywin can control him better.

Well Cat is a Tully, just a Stark by marriage ;). I don’t think there can be much argument that the Starks are consistently more moral in a medieval sense. They’ve bought wholeheartedly into the theoretical medieval ideal of the proper way to do things - the code of chivalry, if such a thing existed in Westeros.

But there also isn’t much doubt that they are neither as smart as the Lannisters ( Tywin and Tyrion at least ), nor as capable. Morally flexible assholes with a proper sense of restraint ( i.e. Tywin Lannister ) are always going to out-compete boy scouts given an equivalence in smarts and drive.

[Wile_E]

@mr.jp

Am I the only one who thinks the Stark clan is not much better than The Lannisters? Cat just killed an (almost certainly) innocent girl to no gain as her last deed. Joffrey is a terrible psychopath obviously, but thats not really their fault, they had no choice but to make him king. And Tywin can control him better.

Cat was out of her mind at that point. She just saw her son and his wife and unborn child brutally murdered in front of her, she lashed out at the person who did that in the only way available to her even though it was futile. There wasn’t a lot of thought going on there or consideration for morality. I think a lot of people in that same situation would have probably reacted the same.

Let’s see, the Lannister’s have pushed a child out a window then sent an assassin after him when that didn’t kill him and framed their younger sibling that they weren’t too fond of for the deed. Incest. Regicide times two (granted one of them was insane and needed killing). Slaughtering two families now at weddings. Slaughtering a whole slew of innocent children because they were the King’s bastards. … I could be at this all day, so yes, I think you may be the only one who thinks that way.

@DigitalC

I think the problem was mostly trying to marry above his station, like to the lord of Riverrun. The family certainly looks large enough, they can’t all be the old farts children.

He referred to some of them as his granddaughters.

[mr.jp]

Thats why I said the Stark clan, not just Starks. As the mother of them, she definitely counts as on their team. I would also count John Snow.

Are they really more moral though? I count two oath breaks by the Stark clan (Robb, John Snow), one by the Lannisters (Jaime), and Jaimes was far the most defensible.

[Sterling_Archer]

So the incest doesn’t bother you then? Or the adultery / children who are not Cersei’s husband’s? Or the child flung from the tower by Jaime? Or his murder of his own cousin to escape prison? Or the plot to get Robert drunk while hunting? Or the attempted murder of Tyrion during the battle? Or Joffrey’s total depravity and insanity? Or Tywin’s treatment of his son, Tyrion, including humiliating him with his first wife/prostitute, whom he instructed all of his guards to rape? Or gee, I dunno, the plot to betray and eventually behead Ned Stark?

The list of Lannister sins is not a short one.

[Acsenray]

@Wile_E

Let’s see, the Lannister’s have pushed a child out a window then sent an assassin after him when that didn’t kill him and framed their younger sibling that they weren’t too fond of for the deed.

Cersei and Jaime framed Tyrion for the attempted mixer of Bran?

[mr.jp]

@Wile_E

Cat was out of her mind at that point. She just saw her son and his wife and unborn child brutally murdered in front of her, she lashed out at the person who did that in the only way available to her even though it was futile. There wasn’t a lot of thought going on there or consideration for morality. I think a lot of people in that same situation would have probably reacted the same.

Let’s see, the Lannister’s have pushed a child out a window then sent an assassin after him when that didn’t kill him and framed their younger sibling that they weren’t too fond of for the deed. Incest. Regicide times two (granted one of them was insane and needed killing). Slaughtering two families now at weddings. Slaughtering a whole slew of innocent children because they were the King’s bastards. … I could be at this all day, so yes, I think you may be the only one who thinks that way.

I definitely wouldnt have killed the girl, especially once I saw that it couldnt possibly make a difference if I did. The Lannisters attempted killing of Bran was to defend their kingdom and possibly their lives. Cats killing of the girl was for naught. So I think the killing of the girl was clearly more evil of the two. The killing of the Mad king I would count as a good deed, not a bad one. IIRC it wasnt obvious that they killed Robert, maybe they just let him get really drunk and meet his death, like it seemed he wanted. He was a terrible and unjust king at that point anyway, so again, not really that objectionable.

Slaughtering all (most of) Roberts bastards is a good one though.

[Sterling_Archer]

Joffrey is a terrible psychopath obviously, but thats not really their fault, they had no choice but to make him king. And Tywin can control him better.

So Tywin claims, but I don’t think we’ve seen any evidence of that.

[MOIDALIZE]

@Dewey_Finn

It’s kind of late, but I was wondering about the “bedding ceremony.” Is it simply that the bride and groom are carried off to the newlywed suite, or is it more than that?

It’s a way for the two families involved to pressure the newlyweds to consummate the marriage immediately. It’s feudal politics. You arrange the marriage to tie two families together through kinship, so it’s important to get that first child conceived as quickly as possible, in order to cement the relationship.

[Sterling_Archer]

I definitely wouldnt have killed the girl, especially once I saw that it couldnt possibly make a difference if I did.

So I guess in a nuclear war, you wouldn’t launch your missiles either, eh? Sometimes you have to make the futile gesture, or else the bully is never going to learn their lesson.

[pancakes3]

@MOIDALIZE

It’s a way for the two families involved to pressure the newlyweds to consummate the marriage immediately. It’s feudal politics. You arrange the marriage to tie two families together through kinship, so it’s important to get that first child conceived as quickly as possible, in order to cement the relationship.

I think he/she was asking if it involved people witnessing it or not and other details pertaining to the actual ceremony - not the reason behind it.

[MOIDALIZE]

@Sterling_Archer

So the incest doesn’t bother you then? Or the adultery / children who are not Cersei’s husband’s? Or the child flung from the tower by Jaime? Or his murder of his own cousin to escape prison? Or the plot to get Robert drunk while hunting? Or the attempted murder of Tyrion during the battle? Or Joffrey’s total depravity and insanity? Or Tywin’s treatment of his son, Tyrion, including humiliating him with his first wife/prostitute, whom he instructed all of his guards to rape? Or gee, I dunno, the plot to betray and eventually behead Ned Stark?

The list of Lannister sins is not a short one.

The indictment of the Starks has been that they’re too idealistic and honorable, with the corollary being that you pretty much have to be underhanded from time to time, like the Lannisters, if you want to survive. We haven’t really seen any downside to the kind of despicable and coldly calculated plotting that Walder Frey engaged in, so that seems like the “smart” way to go. But that doesn’t mean the Lannisters, Freys, and Boltons are going to get away with it this time. They may have gone too far.

[mr.jp]

@Sterling_Archer

So the incest doesn’t bother you then? Or the adultery / children who are not Cersei’s husband’s? Or the child flung from the tower by Jaime? Or his murder of his own cousin to escape prison? Or the plot to get Robert drunk while hunting? Or the attempted murder of Tyrion during the battle? Or Joffrey’s total depravity and insanity? Or Tywin’s treatment of his son, Tyrion, including humiliating him with his first wife/prostitute, whom he instructed all of his guards to rape? Or gee, I dunno, the plot to betray and eventually behead Ned Stark?

The list of Lannister sins is not a short one.

Ned Stark committed adultery too, as did Robb in a way. The incest is consensual.

Sure the Lannisters killed off some people when it suited their needs. But based on Cats killing of the girl this episode (and Robb doing nothing to stop her) it doesnt seem like the Starks are above this kind of thing. Maybe they just havent been in a position where it would be an advantage.

Ned Starks insisting on the other Baratheon being king, Cats capture of Tyrion, and their sense of family honour started a war, that by now must have killed many thousands of men, certainly many many more than the mentioned killings by Lannisters. Not that I think they are fully to blame for the war, but they certainly dont seem to care so much about all the innocent population that will suffer in it. Whatever banner you are under, its just nobility forcing you to die for their internal matters. In fact one of the only people who has shown insight and concern for the common folk is Tyrion Lannister.

Joffrey is indefensible, but I dont think we can put all the blame for that on The Lannister clan. Its unfortunate for them that he turned out to be a psychopath. But what were they to do? If the Starks had a psychotic oldest son, they would have also let him inherit the power. The Lannisters were mistakenly thinking they could control him better, and it seems that now Tywin is back, they can.