Y’know the incest doesn’t bother me. I know folks find it icky as hell, but they actually do seem to love one another and growing up motherless as very attractive and very close twins in an occasionally oppressive household, I don’t find it that insane. Of course Cersei sullys it a bit by taking lovers elsewhere, but they give every evidence of being devoted to one another, twisted or not. Nor is there a serious imbalance of power in the relationship ( i.e. father/daughter ). So, no - the fact of the incest itself isn’t a problem.
The adultery is. As is every other nasty thing the Lannisters have done. But I give Jaime and Cersei a pass on their love, such as it is.
I most certainly would not. Why should millions of innocents die to no avail, just because their rulers are psychopaths. I would probably shoot whoever tries to launch missiles, if that was an option.
The reason he’s a psychopath is his upbringing. He’s a spoiled prince with a father that could care less (seems like on some unconscious level he knows Joffrey is not his blood) and a mother who encourages him in the belief that he is better than everyone else and he deserves to be worshiped and adored and FEARED most of all.
Mark Twain said “Give a man a reputation as en early riser, and he can sleep 'til noon”. I think this is the case with the Starks. I count two oath breaks by the Starks, only one by the Lannisters, and the Lannister one was far better justified. They kill innocents, they break oaths, doesnt seem honorable to me.
Robb really wasn’t the sharpest tool in the shed and he justified his “oath breaking” because he was in lurve and he didn’t arrange the deal, his mother did and he was going through a phase where he didn’t want to do anything his mommy told him. He was also pretty stupid for executing the Karstark leader for his part in the murder of the Lannister boys which ended up depleting his forces and led him back to trying to placate Frey for his help. So yes, he wasn’t very smart about some things but he was definitely not in the same league as the Lannisters.
We also now know that Jon Snow did not break his oath, he was a spy. He’s still a crow through and through, and he dropped his cover just to avoid killing an innocent old man.
I get the Cat hate, I really do. I didn’t like her much at all. But I started warming up to her a little after her confession of how much she hated herself over her inability to accept Jon Snow and her treatment of him. She’s flawed, very flawed and she knows it.
She would do anything for her children and as far as she knew her two youngest sons were dead and her daughters were likely lost to her forever as they were in the hands of her enemies. Robb was the last child left to her, she knew she was dying and she just wanted him safe even though it was obviously futile. When that didn’t work she was out of her mind. I’m not saying she was right killing Frey’s wife but again, she was out of her mind at that point. She wasn’t making logical or moral decisions. At the risk of using book spoilers there were things not shown on TV that would have emphasized just how out of her mind she was at the time.
I really don’t think you can compare one act of murder when a mother is out of her mind with grief after watching her child murdered in front of her with everything the Lannisters have done, no matter how much you can justify some of those deeds.
Also, Frey would hold some blame for his wife’s death. He could have feigned to acquiesce and still have Robb murdered after he left the room, Robb wasn’t exactly in the best of shape to get very far. He could have told his wife to join the bedding ceremony party so she would not have been in harm’s way when the murder festivities began. And heck, he could have just not murdered everyone at the party.
True, but understandable given what his family was going through. The “honorable” choice is not always the most obvious one. Just like you said Jaime’s choice to kill Aerys could be considered honorable.
but still … he went back. Also, his father had just been murdered. If you notice the Starks seem to make their biggest mistakes for love, honor, family and grief.
I don’t think anyone is saying the Starks are the perfect moral compass but by comparison to most of the other families in Westeros they do seem to be the more moral in general.
He agreed to the deal though. No quotes are necessary, he broke an oath, straight up. By doing this dishonerable thing, he also jeopardized his allies and the men fighting for him. And he did it purely for his own gain. It also made it more difficult for me to accept the execution of the Karstark men that you mention, upholding high standards to the detriment of everyone, when he doesnt live up to that himself.
I dont think he is the worst person for doing this. But he is definitely not honerable. And I also dont think the Lannisters are the worst, especially not Jaime and Tyrion.
A wedding pledge to join a rebellion against the crown on the under dog side, and yes that is a pretty big fucking betrayal. People keep saying the Starks were too honorable, but the truth is they were just naive and stupid. Ned had no problem ditching honor when the lives of his daughters were on the line, Robb and Jon (it’s Jon people, yes that is technically a book spoiler cause i read it) aren’t much better.
The dagger the assassin was carrying was said to be Tyrion’s. I believe it was Littlefinger who told Cat this so he could have been lying (his lips were moving after all) or it was indeed given to the assassin by Jamie or Cersei in order to frame Tyrion. But it may never have been definitely stated that they set him up, still they were the only ones with a reason to want Bran dead and Jamie is most definitely the one who pushed the child out the window.
I think it is fully understandable and acceptable what he did. But it was not honorable. So I think claims of better honour is not a good defense of the Stark clan.
I think that yes, they have overall been more moral than how other houses are portrayed so far. But its all shades of grey. And the Lannisters have lighter tones than the Starks do also. When have we seen a Stark doing such an unselfish act as Jaime helping Brienne, or with such an interest in the life of the common folk as Tyrion has shown? Also, partly based on his stupidity partly on his selfishness, it seems that Robb would be a rather bad ruler. In contrast, if the Lannisters were secure in their power, and didnt have to do all they do to defend it, I think a Lannister regime in effect ruled by Tywin might be pretty good.
Once again, Jamie pushed a child out a window to certain death. A child. I realize they are on the road to redeeming Jamie and he certainly isn’t the worst Lannister there is, but still he pushed a child out a window because he might tell someone he was shagging his sister. So that alone makes him worse to me than any of the stupid decisions Robb has made. But hey, I actually like Jamie, I think he’s an interesting character and he’s become even more interesting lately. As far as the Stark’s go, the only one I really like and want to see is Arya and she’s done some stupid things. No one is perfect.
We could be at this forever though, you are obviously not a fan of the Starks, but that’s okay, you don’t have to be. I agree Robb and Cat made a lot of bad decisions and Jon seems to be bad at decisions, too. But please stop trying to make the Lannister’s sound good in comparison, that’s just not going to work.
Lord Frey’s wife was 15. A child. Jaime’s child killing would keep the Lannisters in power and possibly save his own life and that of his beloved wife. Cat’s child killing would achieve nothing.
We need to see Jamie do that for his story arc. Jamie the guy who pushed a kid out of window, who murdered a cousin for the chance to escape, etc.
Tyrion is shown as unique amongst his family for his concern and interest in others. Tyrion is smarter and a better person than his family.
We didnt NEED to see things like that from the Starks because I think most of us assume that they already were a more engaged and we’ll say ‘benevolent’ ruling family based on their reputation.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that they were flawless (Kat murdering the innocent Mrs. Frey as her last act on earth was a total dick move) but their level of morality was more of an ideal that most people find admirable.
Not “possibly”, Cersei and Jamies incest getting out would have got both their heads and their childrens heads immediately chopped off. I don’t think either killing is right but they are completely different situations.