And Tyrion was forced to watch.
When do we find out that she wasn’t really a whore? I don’t remember that part - I’ve just started a re-read of the third book.
Jamie confesses it to Tyrion when he helps him escape after his trial by combat for killing Joffrey.
There’s a fair amount between the lines.
Genna, his sister, gives us the first look at Tywin before he was Lord Lannister. She describes him as being very much like Tyrion, except without the sense of humor. He was suspicious of laughter, because it was often directed at him and his house when he was young. He even loved his wife, but he never remarried.
Second, there’s that tunnel out of the Hand’s apartment. Which leads to Chataya’s, the high class whorehouse. “A former hand” had it built, so he could keep his goings priviate. (I seem to recall her speaking warmly of the hand in questinon as well, but I’m not 100% on that) Well, Jon Ayrn don’t seem the type, and the mad king’s final four didn’t last long enough, and were a little busy, for construction work. That leaves 20 years of Tywin’s handship. So unless Chataya is a lot older than she looks, or her establishment was built on the ruins of another pleasure house, that means Tywin was a regular customer.
Third, when Tyrion finally demands to formerly named Heir to Casterly Rock, Tywin tells him the dwarf is a punishment from the gods for his pride, a twisted mockery he’s forced to claim as his son. Tyrion assumes he just means his dwarfism, but it wouldn’t be unreasonable to assume he meant a twisted version of himself, full of the mockery he hates and the lusts he’s ashamed of. Tyrion’s mother died in childbirth, which Tywin probably interpreted as divine payback for his affection with inappropriate women.
In short, I posit that Tywin loved the ladies, as much as Tyrion does. When he was younger, he may have had the same love of life as well. He just covered it up. He felt he had to make himself bigger than life, Lord Lannister, to get his house the honor they deserved. And maybe he did, given that goal.
–
It’s entirely possible that Tywin would have ignored Tyron’s whoring if he’d had the decency to be subtle about it. Still wouldn’t have LIKED him, of course.
Didn’t Vary mention a hand built the tunnel? I see no reason to believe that chataya isn’t just new ownership in an old brothel. So the tunnel may be very old and not Tywin’s, but I think it was his.
Indeed, it was Varys who told Tyrion that another Hand built the tunnel. He only says Chataya closely guards the knowledge of its existence. So we don’t really know how old it is, but it is certainly not much of a stretch to connect it to Tywin.
Actually, in the first book, when Tyrion first relates the story, he says she was a 14-year old with her maidenhead intact, so he may have known all along. She could have been a fellatio specialist or something, but a smart kid like him would probably have trusted his instincts over his father’s lies, after living with her for two weeks.
But Jaime’s betrayal had to hurt.
Even whores have a first customer, and Lannisters have no need to worry about paying a premium. My sense is that Tyrion really believed his father’s story; his internal monologue in the second book suggests that thinking his first love was actually for-hire has caused him some rather deep issues.
In terms of single bad acts, Tywin’s there was either the worst or second worse of the series, IMO. Only competition is Gregor Clegane’s murder and rape of Elia.
“I need a present for my brother. Reasonably pretty, not too tall, smart enough to stick to a script. A maiden, if you’ve got one. If you don’t, find one. Yes, I know it’ll be expensive. Fuck expensive. I’m a Lannister.”
She was (he thought) a whore in that her affection had been feigned, and payed for. Not necessarily that she was an established professional.
–
Though, every professional had a first day on the job, once upon a time.
Yes, I’ve recently re-read the first two books, and so far, Tyrion seems to believe what Jaime told him: that Jaime hired her and set up the rescue scenario. He thinks Jaime had good intentions. The books aren’t actually clear about Tysha’s reaction to the whole thing, except that Tyrion doesn’t seem to be angry with her.
There is some speculation that we’ve seen here again. There is a woman with a daughter named Lana, perhaps for Lannister. I’d have to go check, there’s more to it than that, bit likely she’s been around again.
To me, ‘fucking’ means both parties are ‘having sex’. Being forcibly gang-raped by hundreds of men is not ‘having sex’, nor is participating in the gang-rape of someone.
I could be reading it wrong, I suppose, but I feel like the revelation by Jaime is the whole reason why Tyrion kills Tywin. There’s nothing anywhere before that (that I recall anyway) to make me think that Tyrion would want to murder his own father - he certainly doesn’t like him very much, but that’s pretty far from “call Tysha a whore again and you’re a dead man” and then actually pulling the trigger.
So if I’m reading it right, then clearly Tyrion did not know, or even suspect, that he had been lied to.
I’m guessing surprise, followed rather immediately by a sense of betrayal, then nightmarish, soul-crushing horror. Followed by depression and a general sense of malese. Then more horror.
That’s the thing about Tywin. He’s capable of planning and going through with genuinely monstrous things, but it’s clear he doesn’t enjoy them. They’re always the means to an end, and it’s always a justified end, as he sees it.
One of his defining character moments was when he and Tyrion were talking about the Mountains rape and murder of the dornish queen and her children. He seemed actually offended by the suggestion that he might have ordered the Mountain to be as monstrous as he was. Because what would be the point of doing so?
And yet he kept the Mountain, and Lorch and the Goat on, because having a few half-tamed monsters that obey orders are just damned useful to have around.
–
Though it occurs to me that Tywin might have had Tysha drugged or ‘prepared’ first. He’s cold-blooded and methodical enough to make sure that his prime teaching aid wouldn’t act up and ruin his lesson. Does the fact that I thought of that at all make me a bad person?
Yeah, I’m farily certain that Tyrion fully believed the story about Tysha being a hired professional. I think the main reason he paid Tywin one last visit was to find out where Tysha was. I think Tyrion though that maybe she actually did love him and maybe they could rekindle whatever they once had.
I don’t know, there’s an awful lot of horrific stuff in the series, and people like Ramsay Snow/Bolton, Rorge, Vargo Hoat and most of the Bloody Mummers who would give even Gregor a run for his money for monster of the year.
All this Tywin talk makes me realize how much I’m looking forward to seeing Charles Dance in the role. I have a feeling he’s gonna hit it out of the park.
OK; I’m still on the first book, so I’ll defer to your knowledge of what’s in the second.
For what it’s worth, in AGOT, just a couple paragraphs after Tyrion tells Bronn the story of his marriage:
" He dreamt of the sky cell. This time he was the gaoler, not the prisoner, big, with a strap in his hand, and he was hitting his father, driving him back, toward the abyss . . . "
There’s nothing like that in the books, and it’s quite possible that the tunnel predates Tywin Lannnister’s reign as Hand, as others have already pointed out. Although I think it’s possible Tywin used the tunnel himself.
I did notice the girl named Lana because it reminded me of the prostitute who named her daughter Barra. That would be interesting, if she was Tysha’s daughter . . . although after her horrific experience, I don’t know why she would name her daughter after the family that was responsible for her misery.