That is possible and even if she herself did not care about her mother, she cares about her father - at least in the sense that she seeks his respect. She has witnessed the way her father treated Tyrion in general and in the Tysha-affair in particular. I think, it’s plausible that a daughter would rather mirror her father’s attitude towards a disrespected son than to side with someone who she must have despised. And who was still more free than she was and also a potential rival for Jaime’s affection.
I have two questions that go back to the discussion about the conspirators supporting the Targaryens: The siblings were homeless refugees for quite a while before they found a new home with Illyrio. So, when did the conspiracy to reclaim the throne for a Targaryen begin? Who belongs to the inner circle apart from the spider?
She says it explicitly in Feast, where she says that Tyrion killed her mother, son, and now her father.
HazelNutCoffee: It hasn’t been established, but I would say that it’s almost certain that Martell was in contact with Illyrio. The prince is too shrewd and cautious not to stay in contact with those around his prospective son-in-law. I can’t speculate if Martell was in contact with Varys, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
Wintertime: I would say that the conspiracy might have begun a short time after Viserys and Dany left Westeros. I believe Robert told Ned at one point that a lot of families held back from supporting him because they liked the Targaryens. As for who else is in it, your guess is as good as mine. Very possibly the Dornish leaders; after all, they have no reason to love the Lannisters and Bartheleons. I wouldn’t rule out old man Frey either. Littlefinger would join if it served his purposes, but I don’t think Varys is stupid enough to bring in Littlefinger. I would wonder about the Tyrells.
Incidentally, about Cersei’s prophecy of a younger woman casting her down, the likeliest candidate is Dany but I wonder if it could be Sansa who under the tutelage of Littlefinger could well emerge as a formidable schemer in her own right.
I would imagine that Doran was definitely in touch with Illyrio but we don’t know how close the contact between the two and how serious his plan to marry Viserys to his daughter was. It may have just been an aspiration on his part which he didn’t confirm with Illyrio. And even without the Viserys match he still had a strong reason to rebel. Whereas Drogo didn’t have a real reason to invade unless Viserys was out of the way. This is what makes me think that killing Viserys was part of the plan between Illyrio and Drogo.
And I agree that Illyrio would have had a hunch about Dany and the dragon’s eggs. It could have been through a prophecy or just a lucky guess but I don’t think he would have given the eggs just as a regular gift.
Anyway I am sure we will learn a lot more about Illyrio in the next book and I am definitely looking forward to that.
I thought the likeliest candidate was supposed to be Margaery Tyrell.
Yeah she is also a candidate but as that link above says, she is probably not more beautiful than Cersei which is a part of the prophecy. Anyway I just thought it would be a neat twist if it was Sansa.
My take on the younger queen is:
Dany remains the most obvious candidate. She has the dragons and she has the ability to inspire love and loyalty, especially in the smallfolk (indeed I would prefer her to most, if not all the lords of Westeros, simply because she does have some compassion and sense of justice). If Tyrion and Varys join her, as some on this board have speculated, then she will have some formidable advisors.
Margaery Tyrell would be my second choice because she is already queen, she has the support of a powerful, relatively unbloodied family plus those who loved Renly, and she is politically astute (her advice to Tommen is excellent). However, she does have two formidable obstacles:
1.) If incest between Cersei and Jaime can be proved, she has no claim to the crown through her marriage.
2.) She is going to have to explain that use of moon tea (if Pycelle is telling the truth).
Sansa is in a good position, too. Littlefinger has left her in position to be heir to the Vale and Winterfell, she would be extremely likely win the support of the Tullys, and in Littlefinger she has an excellent advisor. He may be an evil SOB, but he isn't stupid. However, to me she has these drawbacks:
1.) The Lannisters and Freys have no choice but to go all out in opposition to her. Given what they have done to her family, they have no realistic expectations of mercy.
2.) If the Tyrells can keep Margaery on the throne, they will also oppose Sansa, though this may win her the support of Dorne.
3.) Given the way the Krakens and the traitors are gutting the north right now, being heir to Winterfell may not be worth much.
4.) Her two brothers are still alive.
5.) Littlefinger may turn on her, especially if she spurns his advances. I think it is obvious that Littlefinger is interested in her as more than a protege.
Melisandre would be my fourth choice, but she would have to kill Stannis' wife, marry him, and manage to make him king. Still, she is a powerful sorceress and may be able to do this.
As for the other young womn in the book:
Arya: She is a formidable character (in fact, she's a little too Mary Sue-ish for my taste), but she has no power base and Sansa and her brothers would be ahead of her in the line for Winterfell.
Asha: A very smart and brave woman, but she cannot win the Krakens' loyalty. How can she hope to win that of the rest of Westeros?
Arianne: She appears to me to be too stupid and naive. However, her father may be able to pull it out.
Myrcaella: There is the prophecy. Although she appears brave and intelligent, she is also extremely young to be playing the Game of Thrones. Still, with everybody fighting everybody else, Prince Martell may be able to put her on the throne.
One of Robert's bastards: This would be an extreme longshot, as Martin has been playing fair with us and we haven't had much chance to see them. However, I cannot see this happening unless it comes down to a choice between a bastard and Stannis.Remind me what that was, please?
How many of Robert’s bastards have we actually seen?
Myra
Edric
Gendry
Barra (baby who was killed)
Bella (possibly but not confirmed)
Have we met any more?
Mya Stone.
Cersei had two killed in Casterly Rok, but we didn’t see them. Littlefinger mentions it.
Can someone remind me of the significance of the scenes where Bran is attacked and Theon tries to persuade Robb to go kill people?
Was it just to set up the later scene where the peasant-farmer guy tells Ned about the pillaging – the attack on Bran is an example of what’s going on with the little people while the big shots fight among themselves (also Theon’s whore leaving town)?
Or was there no connection between those events?
I don’t think there was any connection between those events.
I think the main significance in the scene is Robb chewing out Theon. Pushing him further away from the Starks and helping to set up the eventual sacking of Winterfell.
And also adding Osha to the cast of characters.
I haven’t seen last night’s episode, yet, but this would also be the first time we’ve actually seen living Wildlings, which might count for something. It also shows the split between Robb and Theon AND it shows that Theon has no aversion to killing.
And, while they’re sort of his surrogate family, he’s perfectly willing to gamble Bran so that he can satisfy his Chaotic Neutralness.
-Joe
Yes, sorry, I misremembered her name as Myra.
That scene with Robb and Theon was odd. In the books Theon makes it clear that Robb was the only Stark that treated him as a brother. Robb does yell at him for endangering Bran but I feel like they exaggerated the conflict between them. Robb wouldn’t have sent Theon back to the Iron Islands if he didn’t trust him. Catelyn was the one that told Robb that was a bad idea.
I liked last night episode quite a lot, though a few book-related quibbles:
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I distinctly remember the gold flowing into Viserys’s mouth so he couldn’t scream. (Did I imagine that or was it in the book?) Was disappointed that it didn’t here, though his abrupt stopping of screaming was pretty cool.
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The king’s hunting party seemed drastically smaller than I imagined. Didn’t he have a whole retinue with him in the book? Also, what was with that argument with Renly. Was it there in the book or invented for the show just to hammer home that Renly is gay in case you missed the slurping memo last week. (he likes Masquerades, you see…)
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Did they cut Ned’s dream of Lyanna? Wasn’t that while he was laid up in bed with the leg? Or was it later when he’s imprisoned?
I don’t recall Joffrey’s turning on the charm with Sansa in the book, but it worked well in the show to get her back on his side. I was afraid her betrayal of Ned would play oddly if she was still mad at Joff.
Could very well just be something that works better in print than film.
It pains me to say it, but it had to just be a budget thing. Kind of like the (rather lame) tournament. As for the Renley thing, keep in mind that we had last episode Renley and Loras plotting out loud about something happening to Robert so that Renley could get the big chair. I don’t remember him being that sleazy in the book.
-Joe
Was the moon door always on the floor? For some reason, I always pictured it as an opening in the wall, not the door. Did I miss that point in the books?
Don’t think so. On the one hand it makes it easier, and really, if Lord Inbred Basketcase wants to “watch someone fly” it makes it kind of tough if it’s actual door. After all, open the door, shove out Urist McVictim and “poof” he’s out of sight instantly.
So, I was under the impression that it was a door, not a hatch, but it kind of makes more sense for it to be a hatch.
-Joe
Quoting from A Game of Thrones: