Girlfriend ranting (longer than I had originally thought)

[KellyM]

*Originally posted by Cheesesteak *
**Shit, according to some of the replies in this thread, the GF could go out and fuck the daylights out of the Notre Dame football team, and he shouldn’t complain one bit, it’s her body, right? **

Yes, that’s right. Actually, he is free to complain, and if that was all he did, I wouldn’t be bothered by it. But that’s not all he did. He assaulted someone. He has no right to use physical force against someone for having consensual contact with his girlfriend. Go Directly To Jail, Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200. End Of Story.

What his girlfriend did may or may not have been appropriate depending on facts that, as Hamadryad notes, we will probably never know. But on the most charitable reading of the OP’s story possible, what he did was inexcusably wrong. So why are people defending this scumbag in any way whatsoever?

[Sauron]

*Originally posted by Drastic *
**And while rants do work best if you have a clear focus on what exactly the story you’re ranting about is–that whole consistency bugaboo–I do have to give props for providing such a fine screen for lots of others to project onto. It’s possible that going for the consistency thing would have made an inferior screen for the projection booth; a ranter always has to balance these things. **

Screen, nothing. Some of these folks have brought their own THX surround-sound equipment and set up an IMAX theatre-in-the-round.

[Sauron]

*Originally posted by KellyM *He has no right to use physical force against someone for having consensual contact with his girlfriend. Go Directly To Jail, Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200. End Of Story.

I do believe the girlfriend batted away many of the advances, several times. And the girlfriend told the OP (in earlier, separate conversations) that she didn’t like her friend doing that. So it wasn’t consensual.

I love stories with those “twist” endings, don’t you?

[storyteller0910]

First of all, I can’t believe there are those who are labeling the OP a possessive asshole because he had the temerity to get upset when his monogamous partner was being groped by another person (in my mind, the gender of said other person is completely irrelevant). Look, open relationships exist, and that’s just peachy. But the OP isn’t in an open relationship (that we know of). He has a girlfriend, in a relationship he describes as monogamous, and consequently they have an implicit agreement: he will reserve his groping and whatever else to her, and she to him. That agreement was being trampled. If the OP’s girlfriend was bisexual and looking to go on a date with her friend, if she has different ideas about what is appropriate behavior with a nonsexual friend than he does - hey, fine. But make that clear. And once the OP expressed discomfort with that–as far as he understood their relationship, her behavior was out of bounds–she should have either stopped or told him, flat out, that she wasn’t interested in a closed relationship. In my mind, if you care about your partner, you don’t engage in behavior that is going to make them uncomfortable, but remain in the relationship.

As far as the physical contact goes, I don’t really think we’re in a position to judge, because the nature of the contact isn’t at all clear. The OP uses the term “wrist lock,” but I imagine there could be a bit of dramatic exaggeration there… did he actually twist her wrist? Fling it off his girlfriend’s shoulder? Gently remove her hand and place it back on the table? I don’t know, and I’m not comfortable saying that any degree of physical contact was unacceptable in this case. Why not?

Well, consider. Let’s reverse the gender of the OP and the friend. Two women are engaged in a monogamous relationship. As far as woman “A” knows, woman “B” has no sexual interest in men, and no desire to pursue a physical relationship with anyone other than woman “A.” Woman A and woman B go out to dinner with “Bob,” a friend of woman B; woman B confides in woman A that Bob frequently touches her inappropriately, which annoys her. At dinner, Bob is very physical with woman B, over the repeated objections of woman A (who, again, has been told that her girlfriend is not interested in Bob in that way). Finally, woman A calmly but firmly removes Bob’s hands from woman B. Kelly and the others castigating the OP for his behavior - do you also consider woman A in this scenario to be possessive and potentially violent?

[KellyM]

Sauron, especially when the storyteller changes the story mid-stream to gain sympathy from the audience. (In other words, I am not inclined to believe NPavelka’s amendments to his story.)

[Raygun99]

Of course, the statement that the GF wasn’t interested in the friend’s advances was part of the OP. So whaddya gonna do?

If this GF is on a date, as you suspect, while trying to hide it from the boyfriend, this just makes your position even more inexplicable.

[Shodan]

*Originally posted by KellyM *
**
The OP may think his girlfriend is straight. Doesn’t mean she is.
**

Clearly. Nor does being the subject of sexual advances from a lesbian mean that someone is gay or bisexual.

*Originally posted by KellyM *
**
I don’t think it’s required that you tell your boyfriend (“established or not”) everything about your life history immediately upon going on a couple of dates. And for all we know this guy has only been on one date with her; after all, some guys will declare a girl “theirs” after one date, or even none at all.
**

Err - he said they had been going out for four and a half months.

And if he is so damn possessive and jealous, why did he offer to turn around and go home, so his SO and her girlfriend could have the evening to themselves?

*Originally posted by KellyM *
**
I am quite certain that the OP’s rendition of what happened is not wholly truthful, that there’s a lot here that he’s not telling us, and that what he is telling us is colored by his (warped) perceptions.
**

Quite possibly. Or, of course, there could be a lot here that you aren’t seeing, and what you do see is colored by your perceptions.

*Originally posted by KellyM *
**
Regardless, NPavelka is the scum of the earth for assaulting a woman for behaving affectionately toward another woman who was not obviously rejecting that affection.
**

Same problem as before. He mentioned that his SO was slapping her girlfriend’s hand away from her thighs and ass.

Agreeing with your SO that she should not have to be groped in public strikes you as “insane jealousy”?

Really?

Regards,
Shodan

[Caffeine.addict]

The way I look at this, the two women were on a date and this scum of a guy crashed it. They said they were just kidding because he started to attack one of them and I suspect they said they were just kidding because they were afraid that he’s either beat one (or both) of them up or even rape one (or both) of them. Being bisexual can be tough in today’s world, especially with jealous piles of crap running around out there acting like they own their girlfriends.
scum like this HAVE been known to beat up or rape lesbians for “interfering” with their right of access to the woman they’ve decided belong to them.

Where is this coming from? This is a situation where the guy was invited to go out and called his SO and offered to turn back since he seemed unsure that his presence was wanted. They go out to dinner, and the friend of the SO puts the moves on the SO. He overreacts and after swatting away her hand a few times, puts a wrist lock on her.

There is nothing here to indicate that either of the two women thought they were in fear of their lives.

Where is this coming from? It is a rather large leap to go from some guy who poorly reacted to something and put a wristlock on someone to calling them a rapist. This is rather inflammatory and irrational. I think you need step back and reread the OP and his following statements again.

I’m not defending his actions in putting the wristlock on the SO’s friend in any way. At this point, he lost any moral high ground he might have had as the aggrieved party.

None of the parties involved come accross as someone I would like to invite out for drinks. He is someone who is can’t control his temper and acts before he thinks. He also sounds a little immature. Hopefully, he will see the error of his ways and see what he did wrong in this situation and not repeat it.

The SO sounds like a jerk who doesn’t give a fuck about her boyfriend. When two people are in a mutually exclusive relationship, they have to take the other person’s feelings into account. I’m not saying they have to devote themselves to that person and slavishly obey them. Is it too much to ask for that our SO’s not get touchy feely with other people if it makes us uncomfortable? I noticed that he mentions that she didn’t like it when he was flirting with another woman. Is it asking too much that they should treat each other with respect?

The friend seems to be someone who likes to fuck with people’s heads and she decided that she wanted to make the boyfriend look as bad as possible. If she could tell that her actions were making the friend’s boyfriend uncomfortable, why keep doing it?

If all of us were sitting somewhere having dinner and I turned around and starting having wild monkey sex with my SO in the restaurant, you would all be uncomfortable and tell me to stop. It would be rude of me not to. While my example is a little more extreme, the principle is the same.

To the OP, I think that you and your SO should break up. From what you posted here, you would seem to be incompatible. Find someone who feels the same way you do about this kind of behavior.

[Sauron]

*Originally posted by KellyM *
**Sauron, especially when the storyteller changes the story mid-stream to gain sympathy from the audience. (In other words, I am not inclined to believe NPavelka’s amendments to his story.) **

So you’re picking and choosing what aspects of the story to believe?

I agree there are inconsistencies. But it’s possible that this whole thing is a figment, and that what actually happened was the friend beat the holy crap out of the OP and he’s too embarassed to admit it.

Regardless, I see no indications here to allow one to logically leap to the conclusion that the OP’s girlfriend is either secretly bi or a lesbian and wants the OP out of her life. My guess (which has as much validity as a three-dollar bill) is that the touchy-feely friend was jealous of the OP’s relationship with her best friend, and determined to make him uncomfortable with sexual overtures as a way of establishing dominance. The OP’s girlfriend, who was accustomed to (but not comfortable with) such behavior on a milder scale in the past, didn’t realize that a power play for her attention was going on until it was too late to do anything about it.

The OP reacted poorly, but I don’t think that automatically makes him a homicidal lesbian-hater.

[Drastic]

On further reflection, I think what he posted was mostly likely his attempt to repress the memory of the psychotic break in which he knifed both of them to death. The lack of a followup indicates to me that the SWAT team finally took him down.

[KellyM]

Chaos has ensued. My work is done here.

[symplicity]

The story sounds like the friend is insecure. Forget the whole friend wants to be sexual with the so. The friend can just be so insecure that she didn’t want NPavelka being connected (arm around/hand holding whatever) with his so cause it made her feel more lonely/insecure whatever. When I read it, the story seems to be when he makes a move to be physically closer to his so, so does the friend.
The so might have already known NPavelka likes to be close to her and that her friend doesn’t handle that well. The friend might be lonely or hoped that it would be three friends going out and not a couple and her.
My point is that NPavelka might want to consider that the friend might really be super insecure and is not trying to make his so uncomfortable or be sexual with her.

[Angel_of_the_Lord]

::screams:: I hatehateHATE it when the issue of sexual orientation–and people’s personal feelings and inclinations on the subject ::coughs and looks at a few posters in particular:: obscure people’s better judgement.

I’m bisexual. I happen to be attracted to one of my female friends, who is 100% straight. Sometimes, when I’m feeling silly, I will jokingly grope/touch/whatever my friend, or I’ll make mildly suggestive comments. She just laughs, 'cause, well, she knows I think she’s hot, and she knows nothing will come of it. There’s nothing there other than a deep friendship.

If her boyfriend-of-the-moment happened to be present, I wouldn’t dream of even jokingly groping my friend, or doing anything that might be construed as a non-friend-touch. It boils down to basic politeness.

Conversely, my boyfriend and one of his best friends will sometimes jokingly flirt with each other, make innuendos, whatever. I don’t care–it doesn’t bother me, cause it’s just talk. However, I’m sorry, but if I suddenly see hands where hands don’t belong on my boyfriend, I’m going to get pissed as all fucking Hell. It doesn’t matter if it’s a girl or a guy, it doesn’t matter if he’s interested or not, I am going to get pissed! If it becomes obvious that I’m pissed, and the person in keeps doing it, I’d probably blow up. I’d probably ask the person in question to step outside so we could settle things.

(Yes, I have the mind of a chivalrous midwestern male.)

It’s an enormous breech of politeness no matter what gender the people in question are. And, I’m sorry, but this bit about his “acting like [he owns] his girlfriend,” as one poster put it, is pretty well complete BS. If two people are in a monogamous relationship, there really shouldn’t be any sexual contact outside of the relationship without some serious discussion beforehand. This goes with any variant of the monogamous relationship, m/f, f/f, m/m, whatever.

He has every right to be pissed at the girl who was groping his SO. He probably shouldn’t have made physical contact with her, but I can certainly understand why she did it. The minority card doesn’t really work here, people Sorry.

[Tars_Tarkas]

*Originally posted by KellyM *
**Chaos has ensued. My work is done here. **

So you just showed up in this thread to accuse the OP of being a domestic abuser and a serial rapist. Nice.

[Caffeine.addict]

Chaos has ensued. My work is done here.

Does this mean that you were just trying get everyone bent out of shape?

[Una_Persson]

No, I think that KellyM is throwing up her hands in despair and making a sarcastic comment. She doesn’t come into threads just to cause trouble - at least, not that I’ve ever seen. She always has a legitimate point, even if others do not agree with it at all.

[TeaElle]

*Originally posted by Anahita *
Let’s assume that, as the OP describes, his SO is straight. They are in a monogamous relationship (I’m assuming here) so that if the behaviour he described is accurate, that could definately be something outside of the confines of their agreed-upon relationship.

To the OP. If the girlfriend felt that the behavior was out of line, though, she would’ve ended it. She would’ve turned to the woman she’s known for years and said “Sally, please stop it. I don’t like it when you mess around this way. Besides, we’re making NPavelka upset.” and if Sally persisted, “Sally, I’m serious, stop it.” And if Sally continued on, “Sally! Enough!” There’s nothing to indicate that she did any such thing.

*Originally posted by Anahita *
**Again, I’m with Antracite. Way out of order, but would’ve best been dealt with by just leaving the situation and dealing with the SO later, in private. The ‘wrist’ thing was completely inappropriate. **

Exactly.

*Originally posted by Angel of the Lord *
**If two people are in a monogamous relationship, there really shouldn’t be any sexual contact outside of the relationship without some serious discussion beforehand. This goes with any variant of the monogamous relationship, m/f, f/f, m/m, whatever. **

That’s true. However, there is no evidence here that what went on was believed by the parties involved to be sexual contact. The girlfriend said it herself: “We were only playing.”

Sometimes a touch, even a playful touch, is just that, a playful touch. It’s not a precursor to someone’s bones getting jumped, or even an indication that the toucher wants to have sex with the touch-ee. It’s an indication that the toucher and touch-ee are close friends who are comfortable with one another emotionally and physically, and don’t have space issues. Intent is what matters, and the only inappropriate intent I can suss out here is the two women’s intent to not let NPavelka’s bad mood and churlish behavior keep them from enjoying themselves.

[Caffeine.addict]

tlw posted

Sometimes a touch, even a playful touch, is just that, a playful touch. It’s not a precursor to someone’s bones getting jumped, or even an indication that the toucher wants to have sex with the touch-ee. It’s an indication that the toucher and touch-ee are close friends who are comfortable with one another emotionally and physically, and don’t have space issues. Intent is what matters, and the only inappropriate intent I can suss out here is the two women’s intent to not let NPavelka’s bad mood and churlish behavior keep them from enjoying themselves.

To me, there is a difference between the friendly kind of touching you describe and what the OP states as happening.

Anyway in the position I was in all I could do was hold her hand (perfectaly acceptable contact) but the friend kept groping my SO’s thigs and hips telling me that “if you get to touch her then I do too”. She would also touch and grope my SO while I was just sitting there

How often have you groped a friend’s thighs and hips? As I stated earlier, just about everyone involved in this tale behaved boorishly.

[White_Lightning]

*Originally posted by Anthracite *
No, I think that KellyM is throwing up her hands in despair and making a sarcastic comment. She doesn’t come into threads just to cause trouble - at least, not that I’ve ever seen. She always has a legitimate point, even if others do not agree with it at all.

Well, she sure as shit didn’t have a legitimate point to make in this thread. And I think we all know what “Chaos has ensued. My work is done here.” is an admission of.

I also want to say that if you guys want to discuss this particular issue more thoroughly, someone should start another thread.
My take on the OP (and subsequent topical responses):
Cheesesteak (yum!) said “It is a reasonable reaction to be unhappy to watch your SO be felt up by another,” and I agree. I think it’s an even more reasonable reaction to feel ill-used and upset when you make it very clear to your SO that you are uncomfortable with the situation as it stands, and your SO takes absolutely no action to respond to your concerns. NPavelka’s reaction was inappropriate, but I think he was well within his rights to be upset.

And everybody who said that all three people in this interaction were in the wrong, were right.

[Troy_McClure_SF]

*Originally posted by tlw *
**Intent is what matters, and the only inappropriate intent I can suss out here is the two women’s intent to not let NPavelka’s bad mood and churlish behavior keep them from enjoying themselves. **

IMO, the intent was that of the SO’s friend to piss off NPavelka and create said bad mood.

Now, I don’t know what a wrist-lock is, but I took it to mean he grabbed her wrist just hard enough to move it off of his girlfriend, nothing more. Since both he and the SO asked the friend to stop, this seems reasonable to me. Perhaps NPavelka can explain further (Where’d he go, anyway?)