Exactly, just because the ladies have cute parts you want to put your parts into doesn’t make them any better or worse than you. They are better or worse than you for all the same reasons other people* are. (the fact that that sentence could be read by more than 1% of humanity who won’t see the sad irony is why threads/conversations/thoughts like this keep coming up.
the sad irony is that some guys don’t realize that women are people** too.
**Often they are people who want to boink like motherfuckers and rarely that will be with you or anyone you know. Just like everyone else. Except cats in heat, those (what is the feline equivalent of bitch?) cats will fuck every tom!
Everyone says to just be yourself and treat her like a “friend.” That is all good but it’s not like you can just treat your girlfriend like one of your buddies. The relationships most people have are special and different. Everyone has their own style when it comes to things like these. We find what works for us. For example, a guiding principle can help put me in the rigth state of mind. Oscar Wilde once said “women are meant to be loved, not understood.” Sometimes when I think about that it all makes sense.
With that being said, everyone has things that don’t make them feel very comfortable. I think women are more prone to this feeling and are sometimes a bit more introverted than the average guy. It’s understandable. I think Jenna Marbles puts it best when she says “err on the side of gentle, and whatever you think is gentle. Dial it back 10 notches and that’s gentle.”
Right? It honestly is confusing sometimes. Some women do make it easy for guys and just let you know if they like you, but others don’t. Either way, it seems like 9 times out of 10 I’ve got to make the first move and say something. Somtimes navigating that territory can be treachorous.
Well, OK, if you and your buddies normally interact by engaging in touch football or Greco-Roman wrestling that might not be a good tactic, but why not treat her as a “buddy”? What is it about “buddy treatment” that is incompatible with women friends?
The more you talk to women like they’re also people the easier doing so becomes.
If you are speaking about other peoples’ relationships, how do you know this? Everyone in every relationship you have ever seen has explained to you how their relationships started? Seems unlikely.
The best advice I can give men on approaching us, is to :
Be yourself
Be honest
Be confident(but if shy is your nature, play that card too)
Be respectful
Be polite
These are universal for any relations, really.
You’ll know if a woman likes you, it’s not hard to tell. What’s hard to tell sometimes is whether she’s just messing you about.
Which brings me to my next and last recommendation. Do NOT let women (or worse girls) run you around and waste your time.
Too many women these days are entitled, whiny, mouthy, scheming, deceitful and manipulating over grown high school girls with no intention of caring about you.
If you are the type of man that is happy to be friends with, or have relations that go beyond strictly sex, then stand up to them and protect yourself(or better yet, dump them and move on).
This bears repeating, especially relax. You have to relax.
Do you worry about the “right” way to treat or talk to the douchebag sitting next you you in Biology, or the guy in the next cubicle? Of course not, unless you’re trying to get a favor out of him, which is NOT the way to establish a relationship with the ladies. A new dude sits next to you in the class, you say “Hey, my name’s Joe” and shake his hand, you’re not huffing and puffing like this guy.
For my whole life, I have always been just one of the guys. Some times it was frustrating because the boys I liked didn’t like me, “in that way.” I was the girl who played sports, and video games, and drank beer. I rarely wore make-up. When teased, I could take it and give it back with verve! I never had any trouble talking to boys, but I did, more often than not, fall into the friend zone.
When I met my husband, we worked together as attorneys. We realized quickly that we had a ton of fun together and enjoyed each other’s company. We respected each other as peers, and colleagues. We became friend. We became best friends. Then one day he told me he liked me more than a friend (really). And then he kissed me and I realized I liked him too.
He treats me like his best friend. He treats me like his partner in life. I’m very lucky, and so is he.
Besides taking advice from a long-dead gay playwright, that’s insulting, too. You aren’t attempting to communicate or develop relationships with another species are you? Do you have a hard time understanding people? Then you probably have a hard time understanding women, because they are people. Do you get on well with men? They’re people. See the similarities?
Above is a list of “guiding principles” you’ve either ignored or handwaved away. Your OP and comments smell like you are asking for a cheat code to getting into panties, and there isn’t one. This would be a lot easier if you would be honest about what you want. A wife? A date to the prom? Some friends who are girls so you can make yourself comfortable in the presence of people you find attractive? Someone to have sex with? Fall in love with? Just tell us. Personally, I’d recommend making friends with as many women as you can find things in common with before you look for a physical relationship. Broomstick’s advice was sound.
You like movies? We like movies. You read? We read. You follow sports? We follow sports. You run, ride a bicycle, play volleyball? Drink Coke or Pepsi (beer or wine). Where do you go on vacation? Where do you like to eat? Is this still sounding impossible? Do you need a script? You ask what her favorite movie is, she says…
“The Ugly Truth.” You say I haven’t seen any romantic comedies I really enjoyed, but I liked Gerard Butler in 300 and Rock n Rolla. I guess I prefer action movies, have you seen any romantic comedies that had action sequences, too? “Not that I can think of” We should invent that genre. What would be a good band to score Action/Romantic Comedies? (She suggests a few) Bruno Mars has some fast beats *and *some sappy love songs, he’d be perfect…
If you become aware that you are quizzing her and she isn’t asking you questions and contributing to the conversation, beat it. She’s not into you. If, after you’ve exhanged a few likes and dislikes you are still talking and exchanging ideas, you are doing fine and don’t need a map. Just continue to examine things you have in common while being honest about what you like and who you are. Getting to know someone and finding out what you have in common is fun. If no phone numbers are exchanged or no dates are made it just means there wasn’t enough in common, no chemistry, or just not enough to work with. So you move on and try again with the next person who captures your attention. Treat it no differently than you would making any other friends. Is your best friend since kindergarten the quarterback, and do you spend all your time talking sports? Then you might have something in common with the starter for the girls basketball team or head cheerleader. If your best male friend is a die-hard Dr. Who fan, then you might be more comfortable with girls who are into science fiction. Stick to what you know and to people who you share at least a few interests and hobbies with.
With regards to the differences in behavior and expectations when it comes to dating, it boils down to one thing. The difference between men and women when it comes to dating is pretty obvious: women are tasked with displaying a certain degree of restraint with regards to sex, but that isn’t because women are mysteriously different from men, it’s because men use terms like easy, slut, whore, bucket, etc to describe women who have sex. But that isn’t the fault of women. We do the best we can to obtain the same level of respect that men have while still seeking our own happiness. Don’t blame us for occasionally being cagey about sex. That’s on you.
I hear that. Those words don’t come out of my mouth because I always figured I wasn’t doing myself any favors that way. Its a perfect example though of what not to do. Thats what I’m getting at. How do you think men could change for the better with regards to women? A cursory look at the threads on this board will tell you that there have been many grievances with regards to men and their behavior. What do you wish could be changed about men in general?
The best piece of advice has already been given: treat women like people, because they are. However, it’s important not to ignore that they are members in a category of people that our culture has long tagged as being “different/other/inferior” (quite aside from any actual biological differences that may exist) and, accordingly, receives different and unequal treatment even today. As such, you can’t automatically assume that their experiences of day-to-day life will be identical to yours. Many if not most people identifying as female perceive and react to dynamics that fly under your radar, just like your friends and potential friends of different skin tones/ethnic origins/sexualities/what-have-you do.
You’re starting to become aware of this, as you’ve brought up how much you’ve learned from other threads (pepper spray, creepiness, etc.). Great! So keep on thinking about it when you’re trying to understand those feelings of discomfort and cautiousness you describe, and when approaching someone who you’re interested in getting to know. This piece is one of the clearest IMO about how many women evaluate personal safety and risk when being approached by a stranger, especially a male one. It certainly rings true in my experience, although (as a woman) I certainly don’t claim to speak for all women.
That said, women are individuals and not everyone is going to have the same experience or attitude (and some women are indeed assholes, full stop). But being aware that there *is *a history of different treatment/risk levels/expectations for other categories of people, and being prepared to listen to and respect those other experiences, is fundamental to treating *anyone *right. (Added upon edit: making any recommendations for changing men in general is kinda problematic in and of itself, but I’d say this is it, for any “majority” or privileged group: recognize when you’re privileged and listen.)
I don’t know why people always say “just be yourself.” That’s good advice if your true self is super awesome. But if you’re a creepy or needy guy, you should really try to be like somebody else.
I have the best success talking to random women when I already have a girlfriend. This is because I am talking to the woman (or anyone for that matter), simply for the purpose of having a conversation and nothing more.
For example, the other day at the gym, there was a woman engaged in some hula-hooping, which I had never seen before at that skill level. I asked her about it, and a friendly converstaion unfolded. From experience, I know the conversation could have easily progressed to a phone number or date, but that was not my intention going into it - my intention was to learn something about the hooping.
Had I been single, and using the topic of hula-hoops as an “in” to begin a sequence of events that would eventually lead to the romantic level, it likely would not have worked, because it would be awkward, and forced, and artificial.
This will ultimately lead to the paradox similar to “how do I get a job that requires experience if I can’t get a job to get that experience”.
My best advice, which will echo many in this thread, is to talk to people as people.
Don’t pick a target, and go try to follow some procedure to converse. Instead, be social, talk to men and women about things that are genuinely of interest to you. If you say “Man this band is great! Have you seen them before? Are they always this good?” you’d better like the band, and you’d better be interested in what she has to say about the band, otherwise she’ll see right through it.
TL;DR: She’ll see right through it, so don’t have anything to see through.
Flying Rat, thats a good article. Thanks for sharing.
Ok, talk to them as regular people right?
I’ve worked in male dominated professions and currently I work in a female dominated profession. It is not the same. There are a lot of things you can get away with when your just with the guys. Now, I find myself in the minority, and I am far more reserved and quiet. I’m a bit of an aggressive “in your face” person and I don’t think that is all that well received with women. But the guys would think the same things are hilarious.
It’s difficult to put your finger on it but I think women are more quiet. While it’s a perfectly acceptable quality, sometimes it actually makes it more difficult to talk to them. There could be any number of reasons they aren’t talking too. They could literally not want you to be talking to them, or they could just be waiting for you to approach them. Surely, you can see the conundrum we face?
Also, I find that it’s difficult to talk with a group of women. A lot of things I say just get ignored where I don’t think that would be the case if I were another woman.
Maybe I’m way off base. I’m not trying to come off as a jerk here. I’m just calling it like I see it.
Are you agressive and “in your face” when talking to your grandmother, when at a job interview, or when consoling a friend at a funeral? Surely you can tailor your delivery to the audience and venue while still being yourself.
So approach, talk, evaluate, and continue/retreat as appropriate.
This isn’t rocket surgery - it’s basic human interaction.
