Guidelines for treating women right (for the single guy)

[panaccione]

@Troppus

And I disagree with this. Since you seem fond of quotes and great thinkers, try this one on: “Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never merely as a means to an end, but always at the same time as an end.” Kant’s Categorical Imperative/Wiki

Get it? Women are ends in themselves, not merely a means to your end. No one wants to serve a role in your agenda. If, after a *mutually *satisfying, productive conversation a relationship evolves, that’s great for both people.

Yes, I get that. For some people, conversation comes naturally but others have to work at it. Guiding principles and pointers are better than going into the situation blind.

I’m actually not as clueless as I come off. I just want to hear what others have to say. If I were to give advice, I would say practice being more social with everybody. Make conversation with the people around you as much as possible. Get a job in sales. Learn about issues women go through either here on the SD or in books so that you understand them better. Use affirmations to improve your self confidence.

[AClockworkMelon]

@Troppus

Besides taking advice from a long-dead gay playwright, that’s insulting, too. You aren’t attempting to communicate or develop relationships with another species are you? Do you have a hard time understanding people? Then you probably have a hard time understanding women, because they are people. Do you get on well with men? They’re people. See the similarities?

Above is a list of “guiding principles” you’ve either ignored or handwaved away. Your OP and comments smell like you are asking for a cheat code to getting into panties, and there isn’t one. This would be a lot easier if you would be honest about what you want. A wife? A date to the prom? Some friends who are girls so you can make yourself comfortable in the presence of people you find attractive? Someone to have sex with? Fall in love with? Just tell us. Personally, I’d recommend making friends with as many women as you can find things in common with before you look for a physical relationship. Broomstick’s advice was sound.

You like movies? We like movies. You read? We read. You follow sports? We follow sports. You run, ride a bicycle, play volleyball? Drink Coke or Pepsi (beer or wine). Where do you go on vacation? Where do you like to eat? Is this still sounding impossible? Do you need a script? You ask what her favorite movie is, she says…

“The Ugly Truth.” You say I haven’t seen any romantic comedies I really enjoyed, but I liked Gerard Butler in 300 and Rock n Rolla. I guess I prefer action movies, have you seen any romantic comedies that had action sequences, too? “Not that I can think of” We should invent that genre. What would be a good band to score Action/Romantic Comedies? (She suggests a few) Bruno Mars has some fast beats *and *some sappy love songs, he’d be perfect…

If you become aware that you are quizzing her and she isn’t asking you questions and contributing to the conversation, beat it. She’s not into you. If, after you’ve exhanged a few likes and dislikes you are still talking and exchanging ideas, you are doing fine and don’t need a map. Just continue to examine things you have in common while being honest about what you like and who you are. Getting to know someone and finding out what you have in common is fun. If no phone numbers are exchanged or no dates are made it just means there wasn’t enough in common, no chemistry, or just not enough to work with. So you move on and try again with the next person who captures your attention. Treat it no differently than you would making any other friends. Is your best friend since kindergarten the quarterback, and do you spend all your time talking sports? Then you might have something in common with the starter for the girls basketball team or head cheerleader. If your best male friend is a die-hard Dr. Who fan, then you might be more comfortable with girls who are into science fiction. Stick to what you know and to people who you share at least a few interests and hobbies with.

With regards to the differences in behavior and expectations when it comes to dating, it boils down to one thing. The difference between men and women when it comes to dating is pretty obvious: women are tasked with displaying a certain degree of restraint with regards to sex, but that isn’t because women are mysteriously different from men, it’s because men use terms like easy, slut, whore, bucket, etc to describe women who have sex. But that isn’t the fault of women. We do the best we can to obtain the same level of respect that men have while still seeking our own happiness. Don’t blame us for occasionally being cagey about sex. That’s on you.

[Troppus]

@Shakes

Sorry, I’ll expand:

Be apathetic. First off feigning apathy is easier than feigning confidence which some guys have a problem with. Apathy works just as well.

Don’t feign shit. Be yourself and deal with the consquences if things go sideways; at least you were honest and real. There is a lid for every pot.

@panaccione

Yes, I get that. For some people, conversation comes naturally but others have to work at it. Guiding principles and pointers are better than going into the situation blind.

I’m actually not as clueless as I come off. I just want to hear what others have to say. If I were to give advice, I would say practice being more social with everybody. Make conversation with the people around you as much as possible. Get a job in sales. Learn about issues women go through either here on the SD or in books so that you understand them better. Use affirmations to improve your self confidence.

You’re making this too hard. Online anonymous discussion makes it easier for people to discuss specific trials they’ve experienced, but this small sample size does not reflect real life accurately. For most women, the world at large is not a scary, intimidating place full of predators and men trying to PUA us out of tang. Misogyny is a frequent nuisance, but only rarely a pressing threat.

Other women need to reply in order to represent a wider perspective, but in my own experience and that of my closest girlfriends, the only serious obstacles to dating and relationships are the prejudices and preconceived notions men have of our sexual habits and history.

[Troppus]

@AClockworkMelon

I’m all over this. See, panaccione? This guy gets it. Bitches love smiley faces.

[Grrr]

@Troppus

Don’t feign shit. Be yourself and deal with the consquences if things go sideways; at least you were honest and real. There is a lid for every pot.

.

That’s great on a philosopical level. But this philosophy has no real world uses.

[Troppus]

@Shakes

That’s great on a philosopical level. But this philosophy has no real world uses.

How 'bout don’t invest yourself fully into someone you barely know? How 'bout recognize her/him as a fully realized human being with her/his own wants, needs and goals and not just a tool to make one guy/gal happy? Or maybe accept the fact that each individual has his/her own goals and idea of happiness that exist independently of one lonely person’s needs and wants? No one deserves to have a mate. But each honest, lovable person deserves to settle with someone he or she trusts to be real, honest, and well-suited to our personality and habits.

Or, don’t be a sociopath. Whichever is easier to grok.

[Broomstick]

@panaccione

I’ve worked in male dominated professions and currently I work in a female dominated profession. It is not the same. There are a lot of things you can get away with when your just with the guys. Now, I find myself in the minority, and I am far more reserved and quiet.

Oh… OK, that’s a slightly different situation.

Male-dominated groups do have a different dynamic than female-dominated groups. What is considered acceptable language and jokes are different. If you’ve never been in the minority before it is a disconcerting, even uncomfortable experience at times.

You being “far more reserved and quiet” is actually a good instinct in that context. You should be spending some time observing this new social setting before barging in. As a general rule, comments about sex and rough language are far less common among women than among men. Women do talk frankly, even crudely, about sex and male appearance but they are very, very unlikely to do it in front of a man. Your conversational attempts should be on neutral/safe topics at first - weather, work issues, TV shows, movies, food preferences, etc. Observing the normal conversations where you work will help guide you in this. If something comes up you aren’t familiar with - say, soap operas - then you could try “Hey, I’ve never been into that. Can you explain why you find it so appealing?”

[Grrr]

You can feign confidence or apathy and still be “yourself”. I don’t think behaviour modification is the same thing as being phony.

Also, I don’t see every date as a potential wife. You’re absolutely right about not fully investing yourself into some one you barely know. Sometimes when I ask a woman out, I just want to hang out, have fun and maybe just get laid. Thankfully, there are women out there who are of like mind.

[panaccione]

Yeah, you’re right. There isn’t any “answer.” It’s still doesn’t make things any less complicated.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@panaccione

<snip>
I’ve worked in male dominated professions and currently I work in a female dominated profession. It is not the same. There are a lot of things you can get away with when your just with the guys. Now, I find myself in the minority, and I am far more reserved and quiet. I’m a bit of an aggressive “in your face” person and I don’t think that is all that well received with women. But the guys would think the same things are hilarious.

It’s difficult to put your finger on it but I think women are more quiet. While it’s a perfectly acceptable quality, sometimes it actually makes it more difficult to talk to them. There could be any number of reasons they aren’t talking too. They could literally not want you to be talking to them, or they could just be waiting for you to approach them. Surely, you can see the conundrum we face?

Also, I find that it’s difficult to talk with a group of women. A lot of things I say just get ignored where I don’t think that would be the case if I were another woman.

Maybe I’m way off base. I’m not trying to come off as a jerk here. I’m just calling it like I see it.

Like Broomstick said, the women you’re working with are probably more quiet with you. You’re an outsider - you’re not being allowed in to the inner circle of female communication (and you might not understand all of it, anyway). As you’ve pointed out, men and women do communicate differently; you could see an exchange between two female co-workers and think, “Isn’t that nice? She was so complimentary of Susan’s new hairdo!”, when what actually happened was that Barbara was a complete bitch to Susan, and they both knew it. As a lifelong woman, I think you should just be grateful that you’re not being included in the female insanity - I very much prefer working with men to working with crazy, backstabbing, nice-to-your-face-and-talk-shit-behind-your-back females.

@Troppus

<snip>and that act of shaming us is the very thing that is vexing every single guy who is frustrated by the dating process. If you find us guarded and hard to read, it is because you treat us disrespectfully and devalue us when we exert our own will. <snip>

That’s a very good way of putting it. The sexual double standard is still alive and well in 2013 (unfortunately).

@Anonymous User

I am actually viewing and posting in this thread as well because I could use quite some help in this area as well. I seriously lack social skills, and it’s the reason why I have very few real-life friends. I am not very sociable and quite shy. At social events (which I rarely go to anyways), I am usually the outsider that is barely noticeable.

But basically, the message I am getting from this thread on how to talk to women is:

[ul]Don’t have a goal or plan[/ul]
[ul]Be relaxed and smile[/ul]
[ul]Just talk to women as you would with any other person (with some additional flirting?)[/ul]
[ul]Exchange ideas and interests, and be polite and mannerful[/ul][ul]There is no secret cheat method and avoid PUA’s[/ul]
[ul]Don’t stress it; just have fun[/ul]
[ul]Keep the focus off yourself and on her[/ul]
[ul]The more you practice this, the easier it gets[/ul]

Is this correct? :dubious: Please correct this as needed.

That’s a pretty good list. I’d also modify the one about focusing on her - try to keep the conversation more natural, and talk about yourself when it seems normal to do so, as well. Don’t make the conversation an interrogation.

@panaccione

<snip>
Troppus, I agree. I think many women are more concerned with appearance than men and are thus kinder people, or at least appear to be. I think men are less bashful about being a jerk which can sour the well for a lot of us. <snip>

I must be mis-understanding something here - you actually think women are kinder than men? I’ll agree that women aren’t in-your-face jerks as often, but they do just as much (or more) damage much more subtly.

[Chilliwack]

@panaccione

No, I disagree with this point. Planning is essential with just about everything in life.

What are you planning? The way a lot of these how-to questions read is “how do I approach this random woman and make her like me?” You’ve already put her on a pedestal before you know if you like her beyond the physical attraction. You’re already invested…

When you’re car shopping, do you go right into the sales office and ask them to run your credit to see if you can buy the shiny red one, or do you look under the hood and take it for a spin before you decide you’d even like to buy it? If it turns out you don’t like the car, it won’t be such a crushing blow if you can’t afford it.

If you approach women the same way, you have nothing to lose, and fear of losing is what I suspect many fear (I know I used to).

[Kaio]

@panaccione

A cursory look at the threads on this board will tell you that there have been many grievances with regards to men and their behavior. What do you wish could be changed about men in general?

You do understand that, by and large, the men who are genuinely interested in the answer to that question, are not those responsible for the bulk of those grievances?

Some people are willing to change themselves, some are not, and that includes men. Wishing that “all men” were like something-or-other won’t accomplish much. Giving you advice isn’t going to change the behavior of the creepster following me down the street. If said creepster were interested in treating me like a human being, he’d be doing it already.

Also, what everyone else said. Start by getting over this idea that women are alien vending machines where you insert coin, receive sex (housekeeping, cooking, whatever). Yes, treat them like your buddies. That’s what worked on me. Me and him are STILL buddies, and good thing, or else we wouldn’t still be together.

[Jragon]

@Broomstick

If you’ve never been in the minority before it is a disconcerting, even uncomfortable experience at times.

I don’t think it’s being in the minority so much as being in an unusual situation that’s uncomfortable. Most of my life 90% of my friends have been female (“female” used instead of “women” because we’re spanning time from childhood to adulthood). Some of it is doubtless the side effect of me playing flute (at least around here, the flute section in a given group is about 95%+ girls) and most of my social interaction being in band. When I got to college and was in Computer Science, or even when I was at camps that forced me to be in a cabin with all guys it was… uncomfortable. Because I wasn’t used to the different social dynamic. I’m definitely used to both now, but I think the discomfort has more to do with what you’re used to than whether or not you’re in the majority.

[Dangerosa]

@Cat_Whisperer

That’s a pretty good list. I’d also modify the one about focusing on her - try to keep the conversation more natural, and talk about yourself when it seems normal to do so, as well. Don’t make the convers

Too much focus on her is creepy and stalkerish, too much focus on you comes off as conceited and selfish. Its a balancing act - all of this is - and some women have different balance points than others. Some women are going to want you to call three times to show you are truly interested before they say yes, other women are going to think the second call goes over the line into creepy and controlling. Some women are going to wonder if you didn’t like them if you don’t try and get into their pants on date one, other women are going to think its gentlemanly if there is a good night peck at the door and nothing more.

On conversation, if you can find a mutual interest to start off with - restaurants, movies, books, tv shows, the econ class you took together, current events - that is far better. That means you start by finding out enough about her that you can drive the conversation to one of these topics of shared interest. And if you can’t find a topic of shared interest in five minutes - you probably don’t have enough in common to sustain a relationship.

[Troppus]

@panaccione

Yeah, you’re right. There isn’t any “answer.” It’s still doesn’t make things any less complicated.

Give us a for instance. Is there a specific person at work you are interested in but are unsure how to communicate your interest without crossing a professional line?

Here’s an example of how things went horribly wrong. My best friend who loves women and would never harm, discriminate, pressure or in anyway deliberately make a woman feel uncomfortable got in serious trouble for what he thought was a simple compliment.

Kevin liked the curvy, loud, and possibly a little bit crazy Tina. They shared banter for a couple weeks, laughed a lot, and talked about going bowling. One day Tina bounced in to work in an inappropriately form fitting party dress that she spent the day awkwardly tugging in an attempt to better cover her chest. The dress would have been fine on a thinner woman, but if I’d been Tina’s boss I would have taken her aside and advised her to go home and change. She was barely within the dress code, but the dress just didn’t fit her shape or size. And she was clearly aware that she’d made a mistake, she figeted and struggled to cover herself all day.

Kevin, who is normally really good at paying compliments in an inoffensive way, leered at her and said “I really like that dress, Tina” and god help me… he waggled his eyebrows. In his defense, Kev’s hilarious and was trying to be funny, not creepy, but an already slightly crazy and uncomfortable Tina who was clearly embarrassed about her poor clothing choice freaked out. Cried, went to HR, the works. HR sent her home for the day after advising her that her dress was distracting and unprofessional. Kevin was called on the floor and advised to keep his mouth shut and his mind on work. Kevin’s comment and Tina’s dress and over-the-top reaction really caused a scene that Kevin still can’t talk about 2 years later. He was embarrassed, humiliated, disappointed; seriously heartbroken that he offended her. They never spoke again and both got in trouble over a careless comment that lacked a proposition, a curse word, or even a direct reference to her figure… his style of delivery just really set her off and ruined everything for them both.

But… it could have gone the other way. They had already established some flirtatious interest in one another that was appropriate for the work environment. Kevin could have recognized her discomfort with the inappropriate dress and let the attention slide for the day, waited until she was dressed professionally before saying “You look nice today”. Or he could have waited until they were at lunch or bowling before he complimented her appearance. Thing is, Tina already knew Kevin liked her from the banter and the fun they had working together, and Kevin could have/should have waited until they were off premises to escalate the flirting.

Same thing happens in public. My recent examples with interacting with guys. Clerk at Home Depot says brightly “Hey, pretty girl, you need some help?” and I smiled and accepted the compliment and the help. Guy walks out of the grocery store as I’m heading in, says “great smile!” and keeps walking. I said “Thanks, you too!” and kept walking.

Wal-mart parking lot around Christmas as I was walking in, a guy walking out turned around and followed me in. “Hey, you look good in those boots. Come here, I want to talk to you” That guy startled me, and I made a u turn and walked right back out to my car and left rather than risk some weirdo following me all over the store or waiting for me to walk out and follow me to my car.

It’s entirely possible to smile, flirt, compliment and generally be agreeable and friendly to the opposite sex without crossing any lines or making anyone uncomfortable, and it’s likely you’ll make their day if you keep it light and friendly. For me, it’s the clear absence of expectation that makes any interaction welcome and fun.

[August_West]

How did this thread get this far without the immortal words of Alvin Youngblood Hart?

[QUOTE=Alvin Youngblood Hart]

All my friends had to ask me
Sump’in they didn’t understand
How I get, all the womens
In the palm of my hand

I told ‘em treat her like a lady
Do the best you can do
You gotta treat her like a lady
An’ she’ll give in to you
Oh, you can see, you know what I mean
[/QUOTE]

[Unauthorized_Cinnamon]

@Hello_Again

“Learn her name”!? Is this performance art?

In case its not, Protip: treat women like individuals, rather than a uniform mass of robots who dispense sex when you enter the correct code, and you will go far.

I like this so much I want to carefully repeat its name in conversation, feign interest in its hobbies, and slightly neg it until it follows me home and services my genitals!

(Seriously, is it OK if I swipe this for my sig?)

@Shakes

Sorry, I’ll expand:

Be apathetic. First off feigning apathy is easier than feigning confidence which some guys have a problem with. Apathy works just as well.

Also, if a woman rejects my request for a date, my only response is “OK, have a nice day.” as opposed to “But come on. Why not? Are you sure? etc…”

Taking no for an answer naturally follows from respecting the other person as a human being. If you have to feign apathy to not badger a woman into saying yes, I raise my eyebrow at you: :dubious:

To the OP:

My first thought was “Treat her like a human being. You know, like you naturally treat dudes.” But I think the caveat to remember that women are used to certain patriarchal asshatery is a good one. Treat a woman like a human being, but remember that she, unlike you, is used to worrying about getting raped, has probably been called names related to her sexuality, and may have hesitations that seem paranoid to you but are actually very reasonable.

The other thing is, if you think men make the first move when they walk up to a girl and talk to her, you may be missing a huge piece of the puzzle. I’ve read that women typically initiate a flirtatious interaction with eye contact and body language, and it rings true to me. We tend to invite promising guys to come talk to us by holding eye contact, turning toward the man, smiling, flipping our hair, and so forth. If you are routinely approaching women who haven’t “issued” this type of invitation, you’re going to get rejected a LOT and probably resent your perceived duty to cold-call women.

Oh and, whatever you say, just smile and laugh - it shows confidence.

[Clothahump]

**Guidelines for treating women right (for the single guy)
**

Guidelines for ANY guy, single or married:

1. Treat her with courtesy.
2. Treat her with respect.
3. Make her smile at least once a day.
4. NEVER make her cry.

[The_Understander]

Tips?
From me?

Well, you asked for it.

Be cool with being single. Be respectful. Don’t carry your baggage about what society thinks of single men with you. Better to do you. Not entitled does not mean give up. Cast a wide net. Roll the dice and be ready to vote with your feet.

That works for me.

[panaccione]

@Troppus

Give us a for instance. Is there a specific person at work you are interested in but are unsure how to communicate your interest without crossing a professional line?

No, it’s not really a for instance question. I can imagine what your friend must have went through. I try to just refrain from saying anything that might be miscontrued as sexual harassment at work as it’s so easy to get yourself in trouble.

I guess I’m just interested in what women have to say about dating in general. I don’t have that many actual “friends” who are women so I don’t hear too much from their point of view. Reading some of the threads here and other books and articles has been a real eye-opener. I think just understanding another persons point of view can go a long way to getting along better and developing a relationship.