Interesting. Isaiah Berlin blames the thinking behind that saying for most of the great evils of the twentieth century.
Daniel
So a man is beating up his wife and the cops come to break it up. The man is violently resisting arest and in the ensuing melee a cop accidently shots a kid dead. Are you seriously telling me that the father would stand trial on manslaughter charges? And that the cop would not be investigated, suspended during the investigation?
Fuck off, s’il vous plait.
you guys are hijacking an interesting thread with your bickering, which you, Desmo, started.
Using expletives just because you can get away with it in the pit… tsk tsk.
If you think Finn is too prolific, start a thread about that.
Correction: I only said what reading certain posts made me feel, even followed by that explanation once again.
But why others get a pass no matter what they write about me, my part of the world, my religion, my cultere, etc…?
Read again what I want to have written as addition to the “Terms of agreement” of this message board. I really think I should post that request on the ATMB.
Salaam. A
You’re right, I probably shouldn’t have responded as much as I did. For whtever it’s worth though I stopped responding after a few posts. True, probably a few too many, but such is life.
But, in order for this hijack to die, we should all stop talking about it. I await my first pit thread if I’m to be pitted, otherwise let’s get on with bussiness, yes?
Yes, and you could start a separate thread about whatever the fuck it is you’re whining about. As I said earlier, fuck off, s’il vous plait.
I understand, and I think this may be a language barrier thing again… saying “I feel like shooting soldiers” while slightly semantically different from “I want to shoot soldiers.” is not really allllllll that different.
That I do not understand and I think that if it’s allowed to continue it’s a black mark against the Dope.
I read it, and to be honest, I think it belongs in the Pit and not ATMB… think it might even stir up a hornet’s nest if you post in ATMB. But as always, do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Yes it is quite a bit different.
Let(s rip the sentence apart:
Indicating there is an instigation that starts the shaping of my thoughts.
Which shapes my thoughts into what I describe.
Explaining once again that
a) there is a cause that shapes my thoughts
b) that I see how it is shaped and what it is that gets me that angry that I think as I do.
I do not see me declare that I am picking up a weapon, leave my house and fly into Iraq to start shooting at these invaders.
Next I go further with explaining that if even someone like me can start feeling that way, how much worse the sitiuation is when it comes to others.
Note also that I don’t even mention “soldiers” let alone “US” soldiers.
That is what Gaudere makes of it while victim of an attack of Fervent US Patriotism. Conveniently overlooking the fact that there are a lot of other nations who have soldiers in Iraq. This once again a proof of her celf-centered, by sheer US Patriotism inspired comment to a post made by someone who does not share her views, her country, her “way of life” but is perceived as “the other, the enemy, the Mad Arab Towel Head”.
I think sociologists reading this website can make quite a few interestring case studies.
Salaam. A
The causal factors may differ, but, for instance, the phrases “I feel like having pie.” and “I want to have pie.” are pretty much semantically identical.
Moreoever, I don’t think that the wishing-death-on-people rule has an escape clause for instigation. Could be wrong, especially as no mods have yet commented on this thread .
That’s all well and good, but it doesn’t change the meaning of the statement, just gives it background and justification.
Nor did I say that you’d implied you would be acting on your desires, as I pointed out in this thread at least once.
However, you don’t have to declare that you’re acting on a wish-for-someone’s-death for it to count as mark against you on the Dope. (as least as I understand the rule)
Again, valid points and yes, you explain the ramifications of what you feel and why you feel it… but it doesn’t change the sentiment being uttered.
No, but you did say
I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that you were referring to the people occupying Iraq (eg soldiers and contractors).
True enough… but then it seems as if the only distinction is whether you’re wishing death on US soldiers or all the soldiers in the region.
And, again… it may be a language barrier, but in English an ‘and’ statement logically demands that both halves be true. Thus, if you’re talking about people who invaded and occupied, you could only be talking about those troops who both participated in the initial invasion (IIRC only Americans and Brits) and stayed around to occupy the country (IIRC only Americans and Brits).
- Talking about a sentiment is not talking about acting upon the sentiment.
- This “wishing death on someone” rule is in my idea to be understood as
“wishing death” on someone posting on the SDMB or their family or whomever you can refer to as being directly linked to them.
If you are going to interprete it as counting for every “wishing death on someone” posted on this message board then I would like to see a lot of “warnings” to a whole lot of members for a whole lot of posts. (We have already a few in this very thread.) - I don’t even write that I wish anyone dead. I write that reading certain posts make me “feel” somthing like a wish to go shoot at invaders of the sovereign nation Iraq.
If you want to take every word litteraly, then do it.
a) Shooting at something or someone does not guarantee killings
b) I can be killed as first one, before even getting to shoot at someone.
c) this implies that there is someone ready to kill ME first.
d) this makes me, as well as the other one, acting in self defense.
e) the fact that I am not in such a postition while writing on a message board makes the whole situation a moot point to begin with.
f) this brings us back to the mere fact that I was occupied in typing a post on a message board = not occupied in picking up a gun, leaving my house, flying into Iraq to start shooting.
Salaam. A
- Doesn’t matter. The operative word in “wishing death on someone” is wishing. Wishing is a sentiment, not one that’s necessarily acted upon.
- Agreed. And as there are Dopers and their relatives who’re participating in the occupation of Iraq…
And, yes, as I’ve stated many many times in this thread, it seems like there’s a double standard. And that’s not right. - Seems too finely semantically minced for my tastes. (and that’s saying something.)
a) I pointed that out in this thread
b) irrelevant
c) also irrelevant
d) eh… If there is a tense police standoff and I know that the cops are ready to shoot anybody who moves, and knowing this, and with a desire to engage in conflict, I walk into the situation with a rifle? Defintely not self defense.
e) If the issue was acting on a wish rather than simply making a wish, I would largely agree. But being that you live in the ME, it’s not all that far fetched that you would be able to make good on your desires and pick up a rifle, hop on a bus, and wind up in Iraq.
f) again, never said you were acting on it. As I understand the rule, it pivots around the wishing, not the acting.
Last time I try to take a possibly interesting poster and try to reform him. How sharper than a serpent’s tooth is an ungrateful Belgian. 
I don’t know and I do not need to know. Anyone can write no matter what on an internet message board.
If you say I need to know and take it into account in everything I post here, then I can demand that everyone all the time ** needs** to take into account that it might well be that someone I know is Iraqi and is resisting the occupyers in Iraq.
Yet I see all the time posts made about wishing death on everyone wo dares to resist the invaders (and a lot more then that, isn’t it?).
Where is this double standard we are talking about? Yes, there it is again. Quite clearly. Spread all over this message board. Not censured at all, these posts. Nothing happening at all.
Of course it is self defense if that police or however you call it has no reason, no justification at all, no right whatsoever to be there.
So what? The US and other soldiers in Iraq are already there. They kill people. They shoot and kill Iraqis who resist their occupation of their nation and other who do nothing else then just living their life Oops, “collateral dammage” ? That little girl I talk of… “collateral dammage”?
People on this message board call them heros. I am warned not to be a “jerk” by an administrator, if I dare to question this mentality.
People on this message board call for killing eveyr Iraqi who gets in the way of the heros, resisting the occupation of their ountry.
People on this message board reason that if Iraqis don’t want to get killed, they must leave their own city (Fallujah) etc… etc…
''Collateral dammage" is “breaking eggs” etc… etc… You just need to know when a US missile is going to hit your house and get out in time.
People posting on this message board seem to be soldiers in Iraq, just doing that very same thing if ordered to do so.
Do you see moderators coming on the board censuring all these posts and giving “warning” not to talk about “shooting at Iraqis at this message board. Ever.”? I must have missed it.
See above.
Then look around at every post made on wishing dead to me, my family, my friends, my whole region, even all Muslims on this very globe.
Do you see moderators “warning” all these members about these posts?
Again I must have missed it.
Again: I think my proposed additions to the “Terms of agreement” must be added to make things around here perfectly clear. Once and for all.
Salaam. A
And you’re saying that justifies the invasion? They fired a few missiles in the general direction of our planes, so years later we had to invade them as self-defense?
For the first part… kinda. In an ultimate metaphysical sense, you can do whatever you have the imagination to conceive of and the will to execute. In terms of this message board though, certain actions will get you banned.
For the second part, I’ve argued, in this thread, that there is a double standard and that wishing to go join the US armed forces fighting in iraq is essentially wishing to kill Iraqis/insurgents. So I’m not quite sure why you’re arguing with me on that point.
I know.
I’ve said that in this thread, many times.
No, it isn’t.
If I go and pick a fight, even if the people I’m picking a fight with are total assholes who’re just looking for an excuse to scrap with me, I’m still not acting in self defense. I’m picking a fight.
US troops being there does not change the reality of wishing death upon them in this message board. Causation/rationalization is not justification.
See post 192 in this thread.
I agree with you, why are you arguing with me about points which I agree with you on?
Dude… In the dozens of posts I have in this thread, how many times have I pointed out that there’s a double standard and that it’s not right?
Leave the white man’s burden at home.
Tend to your own garden.
Thank you, M. Voltaire!
And you don’t have to be white to pick up the white man’s burden, right?
I don’t “argue” with you, I just reply on your remarks about “intentions” you see in my post (= the one copied in the OP) that are not remotely there.
Honestly, if I wanted to go kill some US soldiers, I would not write it on a US based message board and on no public accessable medium at all.
I would be there, organizing the resistence. Because they seem to have very much lack on leadership , financing and organisation, if you ask me.
One can not say the same about some members of this message board who actually are there or making threads that they are ready to loeave for going overthere.
Not for killing US or other non Iraqi soldiers or civilians. For killing citizens of Iraq or shoot at them or fries missiles at them or drop bombs on them.
I don’t see them getting banned for having done that or being there for doing just that when ordered to do so, or getting ready for leaving to go doing it and telling us about it.
Salaam. A
Mehitabel, go play your little girl games somewhere else. You are no match for adults.