I can’t help but think every American needs to talk to Aldebaran. Most Americans believe that this war is moral, or, at worst, that Bush believes it is moral. We believe that America deserves no violence in retaliation for its acts, but that America has the right to engage in violent actions and torture, even against innocent people. Americans whine about “political correctness,” but the ultimate political incorrectness is to sugges that America behaves immorally, and has done so for many years, and that as a nation it has invited retaliation. The truth hurts, but the truth has a right to be true. Beyond all political posturing is the physical law that every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
Yep. I, too, am in the SS Mehitabel. ** Aldebaran** will take offense at anything. He even took offense during a discussion of Occam’s freaking Razor. His coyness viz. personal information is fine and his right, but encourages him to claim authority and knowledge without following it up with actual authority and knowledge:
We can’t know. Aldebaran’s privacy means we know little about him. So, we have to count on his goodwill to not take offense when it’s not warranted. But he has little or no goodwill. It’s impossible to debate him-- he never concedes a point, even if he’s obviously wrong. He has three responses for those who disagree (and many who agree)-- cries of racism, complaints that the line of discussion is suddenly off-topic, or silence.
All told, whatever needles of wisdom he may contribute are not for me worth the haystacks they’re buried in.
(Emphasis added by me…)
Thanks Shodan, I haven’t laughed this hard in weeks… Smooth.
No it isn’t. Nobody is invading Belgium, and you have made it clear that you don’t live in Iraq.
Regards,
Shodan
You sir are a dumbfuck. Say you want to go join the resistance. Say you want to be a part of people that cut off the heads of innocent people. Say you want to join the people that murder aid workers. You can do that just like everyone on this board can say they want to go and fight in Iraq. What you like everyone else on this board can not do is say you want to shoot boardmembers. The mods on this board have given you a good long rope just as they did with ** Collunsbury ** and he hung himself with it. I see that you are also going down that path. Quit playing the fucking victim card you get more leeway than anyone else on this board.
Cite?
Cite?
cricetus, don’t be silly. Besides, I was talking to Aldeberan and I would like to get an answer from him. If you want to continue the argument you tried to start above, you’ll have to do it with someone else.
…because you take it as a given that people are better off when we invade their country, imprison and kill them. Your mind is not open to other possibilities, and the discussion doesn’t interest you. Which is why you are what is wrong with this country.
I’ll help you out ** Starving Artist **.
Those are the numbers for ‘direct’ killings.
Numbers for those that died under sanctions range from two hundred thousand to 1.6 million. So depending on who you believe and if you include deaths from sanctions that number increases significantly.
Iraq body count currently has a max of 17124. The actual number is probably higher than that. Going with the max from Iraqi body count and the numbers from the first cite 10x is certainly accurate. If you add the deaths under sanctions and depending on whose numbers you believe it can reach 50x.
cricetus, I see you are determined to try to derail my attempt at a meaningful dialog with Aldeberan. To you I would say you don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re looking at an apple and calling it an orange and then smugly assuming that you have determined its identity.
I know you don’t know what I’m talking about, but once I’ve had a meaningful dialog (hopefully) with Aldeberan, I’ll try to explain it to you in terms you can understand.
Thanks. I started to point out that cites were readily available in this very thread but I figured it wouldn’t matter since cricetus only wants to criticize the U.S. and isn’t really concerned with whether or not more innocent Iraqis are dying now than before.
But again, thanks. I appreciate your help. 
What you’ve done is “beg the question.” While you are at it, you might as well ask him if he still beats his wife. Tell me that these are not classic examples of that time-honored fallacy:
“Are you not pleased to think that for every Iraqi death occurring today it is likely that ten, fifteen or twenty would have occurred under Hussein? Are you not pleased that, overall, many, many, fewer Iraqis are dying daily than under Hussein? And are you not pleased that once Iraqis are able to assume control of their own destiny and run their country themselves, it is virtually certain Iraqis won’t be dying as a result of their government at anywhere near the rate they would have under Hussein, or even worse, one of his sons?”
Don’t resort to head-spinning sophistry of this nature, which wouldn’t slip by the average junior high debate team, then patronize me.
By the way, it’s a public forum. You want a private chat with someone, use e-mail.
What if the someone in question has disabled their email?
I also would like to see some sort of evidence that the premises of your loaded questions are true. I don’t care who you thought you were talking to; you’ve been around long enough to know that when you post you are talking to all of us.
Oh, please. Spare me your even more sophomoric attempts to appear superior. I’m trying to have a sincere dialog with Aldeberan based on facts that are commonly accepted by almost everyone – the likes of you excepted.
Further, I’ve not forbade you to post; rather I’ve stated my desire to talk to Aldeberan about this issue without having to get into a pissing match with you. Yak all you want, it doesn’t matter to me, I’ll just ignore you from here on.
The above was intended for cricetus. However, it’s appropriate for This Year’s Model, as well.
Being condescending doesn’t make any more of a point, nor does it make your belabored and sophomoric questions non-fallacious.
In other words, you’re simply talking out your ass. I wouldn’t have expected that from you, but oh well, you learn something every day.
I will however say that it’s amusing the way you guys are rushing to try throw a monkey wrench into a discussion that you fear you won’t like the results of. Why don’t you let Aldeberan, who has shown he has at least as much intelligence as the rest of us, determine for himself the weight he wants to give my words and give the answer he deems appropriate? I’m sure he doesn’t need you to try to guide him toward what you hope will be a face-saving way out of answering the questions I posed to him both honestly and sincerely, something which both of you seem to be having trouble believing.
Aldeberan is perfectly welcome to post when he chooses to do so.
And, as I pointed out, your questions are not honest or sincere. They are fallacious and self-serving.