Bollocks, the fact that what terrorists offer (I highly dislike the word insurgents so I’ll go with terrorists instead) is just the return of shackling the Iraq people to oppression once again is something that we should allow to return.
Critcizing the US foreign policy is not the same as criticizing the US, and criticizing the US in one regard is not evidence that one wants “only” to criticize the US. What evidence do you have that I want “only to criticize the US” (as opposed to criticizing specific US military actions)? What textual evidence do you have for my all-encompassing hatred of America that motivates my judgment of this war, and my lack of concern for the Iraqi people?
People defending their homeland against armed invaders are not terrorists.
No problem. Thanks for the apology. Now I must apologize for being so long in acknowledging your answer. Today has been rather fragmented in terms of my computer time, and I just now remembered that you had answered me. So thanks again. Even though we often disagree, you’re a classy guy and I didn’t want your post to go unacknowledged. 
Regards,
SA
Are they defending their homeland ? Tell that to the majority of Iraqis, namely the non-Sunnis.
These terrorists remind me more of Al Capone and his gang than Paul Revere and the patriots.
How ignorant can you be, dude?
"In any case, “The terrorists” as characterised by any of the above definitions, were not responsible for the death of this little girl. She was killed by a bullet from a gun held by a US Soldier. Even if the soldier were battling insurgents at the time, blame still couldn’t be laid with them because they wouldn’t be there were it not for your nations initial pre-emptive attack. "
The preemptive attack occured on 09/11/2001. Had that not happened, we would not be in Iraq today. And don’t give me any of this shit about Monica’s mouth* Iraq being a peaceful sovereign nation that we invaded out of hand just because we felt like it. Saddam supported the terrorists, both overtly and covertly. His removal and the establishment of freedom in Iraq will benefit everyone.
[sub]*Just checking to see if you still were paying attention.[/sub]
'Scuse? Is this along the lines of “Al-Qaeda, which Saddam didn’t even allow in his country, attacked us, so obviously Iraq is to blame. Let’s invade!”?
We don’t need Monica’s mouth. You’re doing a plenty good job swallowing what this administration is pumping out all by yourself.
Starving Artist, how are you doing, young man? Still rowdy, I see!
I think that there may have been in more recent times a shift in views on how many people were actually the victims of Saddam’s murders. I will see if I can find a cite for it. For one thing, the burial pits are not containing as many bodies as people had indicated would be found.
I certainly don’t want to minimize the horrors of Saddam’s regime. I just don’t think that anyone knows the scope yet.
The link that was provided was from estimates made three years prior to the actual invasion.
Also, the number that was given for the maximum of Iraqi dead is now well below the minimum number of Iraqi dead. A study done by Johns Hopkins (I think) in conjunction with two other universities indicates that the number of civilian Iraqis killed since the U.S. invasion (as of last fall) is probably around 100,000. The study is peer-reviewed, but was very rushed. Essentially it said that the number of dead was somewhere between 18,000 and, I think, 160,000 – with 100,000 being a likely number.
I know that sounds a little shaky, but it does indicate that U.S. Government numbers are way off. (In fact, they seem to have stopped counting; yet keeping a record of civilian deaths is supposed to be a responsibility of occupying forces.)
I’m honestly not trying to derail your questions to Aldebaran. I just think they may be based on false premises.
Sorry that I cannot cite at this time.
If I don’t “see” you before this weekend, I hope the New Year brings good things for you and those you love!
The ones killing and wounding their fellow Iraquis, including civilians , are.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/12/28/iraq.main/index.html
Here is a link to the Johns Hopkins/ Columbia University study that I mentioned.
Ah, Zoe! Hearing from you is like a breath of fresh air!
And I’m just peachy-keen, thank you very much. You are doing very well too, I hope.
Of course. Someone has to fight the good fight. 
You may well be right and I’ll certainly modify my questions to Aldeberan to reflect that if so. But bear in mind that when I speak of those who were dying under Hussein’s regime, I’m speaking of the total…both those killed as a direct result of his directives (and those of his subordinates), and those who were being killed indirectly as a result of incidental and/or intentional withholding of food, electricity and medical supplies due to theft or animus on the part of his regime.
No worries in that regard, Zoe. You and your motives are above question in my mind. You are one of the most honest, reasonable and open-minded posters I know, and you’re always willing to listen impartially to the other side. I know that your intent in raising these issues is in the interest of accuracy and a proper weighing of the cost or benefits to the Iraqi populace of the actions we’re taking there.
And I hope the New Year brings good things for you and those you love as well, Zoe. It was good to hear from you. Thank you for your post.
I’m afraid I have to bow out for now, but I promise I’ll read it tomorrow. Thanks again.
Don’t bother. Its 95% confidence interval is between 8000 and 174000. Seeing as the number they are predicting is 12 times their lower bound we can’t draw any meaningful conclusions from it. I know we had a thread involving this study before. Anyone else remember it or am I remembering things that don’t exist again?
jayjay did it better, but I still have something to say.
Technically correct. It would have robbed us of a bullshit pretext and the fearmongering that “9/11 changed everything!” allows.
If terrorist connections were the reason, why Iraq and not Saudi Arabia?
If WMD’s were the issue, why Iraq and not North Korea?
Wow… which ‘the terrorists?’
Everyone!
Except those who don’t agree with Western values and politics.
Those people we’ll kill.
P.S. The united states, via the School of the Americas, has supported terrorism. What, exactly, do you propose be done about that? Can someone invade our nation and murder every American who picks up a gun to fight, as, America supports terrorists?
South Korea, a democratic government, would be threatened and since large amounts of Electronics and industry come from that region, an attack from the North using Nuclear weapons would harm a substantial amount of world trade, with Iraq its different, we went in to prevent Iraq going further down the shithole (repressed states are weak states) we got there in time.
North Korea can be contained, its ethnically Homogenous, and South Koreas problem, US forces invading North Korea would find a situation like Iraq a picnic. and after Kim Il Jongs death could be easier to reunify with the South. Iraq exploding into fragments is not what the Middle East wants, and would most likely after the death of Saddam if we had not intervened.
Is that this week’s rationale? I haven’t been keeping up.
Starving Artist
Maybe you should send your questions to the father of that little girl I speak of.
See if he and all the others who lost relatives, who are wounded or are otherwise affected by this criminal war and occupation find the lives of their loved ones so utterly unimportant as you propose they are in the light of maybe “some” profit future Iraqis might have in coming generations.
Of course it depends on what you call “advantage”.
Probably, and at least as a part of this, you have visions of the poor illiterate underdevelloped Iraqis having all the “benefits” of US Capitalist Consumerism.
Leading to destruction of all the traditional family values because everybody needs to have six jobs to pay for all the (US produced) goods.
Hence old people are no longer cared for by their family but put away in “elderly homes”, children are put in “baby care” a few weeks after birth, orphans are put in orphanages because no family has the time or the want to care for them etc…
But everyone shall have six TV sets and 20 radios and a satelite dish or five and four cars to keep all of them busy with working only for being able to pay their debts.
The rich however shall have no need to have five jobs at the time to pay for all these goods. They never had and never will have.
Their elderly people and their children and their orphans will be cared for at home in the family. They will continue to attend the best universities, both at home and elswhere, as they already do. They will continue to have everything they already have. They will control the State, as they do now. Hence they will control the population, as they did in the past.
It always amazes me that nobody seems to remember how Iraq was before Saddam Hussein lost his mind.
Side note: Well, no doubt in my mind that he was crazy since he was a teenager, but he went gradually further down that road under the the US umbrella and support. Amazing stories lie in how Good Friend Fighting these Evil Iranians became Evil Dictator, we need to “libertate” the poor Iraqis.
Post scriptum I : You may be sure of it that especially the Iraqi women thank the US invaders for their liberation of education and indepence and jobs, right back into hijab and kitchen.
P.S. II: Take a look at reality in Iraq.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4066835.stm
It is not even important that all these stories are true.
What is important is that they circulate as being true and that there are people who can confirm them to be true where the US Heros appear.
But all these “terrorists” that fight the Liberators come from the outside, no? No Good Iraqi has any reason to have any grief or any anger against the US Heros.
Salaam. A.
Why you fuckin’ arrogant little racist asswipe! Just who the fuck do you think you are to speak in behalf of what Middle Easteners “want”?
Don’t bother replying, the answer is contained within the query.
Meanwhile, in the real world, Poll: Iraqis out of patience.
Nota bene: that is the last poll made public and it was taken a very long, in Iraqi time, eight months ago. Knowing the continued chaos and slew of deaths that can be directly attributed to the occupiers since, I’d bet dollars to donuts that and even larger percentage (and it was up to 80 plus % outside of Kurdish areas at the time) want you the FUCK out of Iraq.
And trust me, you *will * get out. It’s only a matter of time and how many more bodybags it’ll take.
Since when did guessing what could happen translate into racism you dumb fuck. I don’t see how a fragmented Iraq with its ethnic tensions you prick, could be of use to any one in the Middle East, for example the Kurds suddenly getting independence, but then, claiming chunks out of Turkey and to a lesser extent Iran for themselves too, conclusion? Wider war with large amount of death, you dumb prick.
Which can translate as some Iraqis wanna split, of course they’re outta patience you stupid retard, but they know they have to endure whatevers coming to ensure that Iraq after the occupation has some fighting chance to preserve its democratic institutions. Its like saying ‘Northern Irish out of patience’ of course they are, but it doesn’t mean they’ll kick us out before the job is done.
Well I’m not in Iraq, but duh you dumb fucktard, like I’ve said they’ve got every right to want us out, but we won’t be going anywhere until we get their democratic and representative government rolling and its police, security and intelligence services off the ground as well, the public sometimes can be fickle, but the government of Iraq knows this has to be done to ensure the long term future of the country.
Of course Redshift, heres your dummy, want me to put it back in your mouth where it belongs? Or do I have to tell you to sit in the corner like a bad little boy.
Dumbass.
I believe Iraq will succeed with our help. I will never be shaken it.
I wouldn’t know what books you could read.
In my view: The best way to “come into it” is reading poetry in your language and imagine yourself that when you fall back on a similar style for expressing yourself this sounds quite normal to everyone. What Western ears or readers see as an exaggeration or artificial embellishment of wording and phrasing, is not artificial for the Arabic speaker.
You can not say about my daughter that she is a beautiful girl. That is like saying: well, furtunately for her she is not looking like a monkey. If you want to sound polite, you must say she is the most beautiful girl God has ever created among the most beautiful girls on the whole planet
Salaam. A