Aldebaran, as you avowedly are serious about fighting ignorance, how about coming across with the requested cites in this thread?
Thanks.
I’ll give you points on that one, I guess it’s my fault for using the non specific term soldiers.
Although I think using common sense we all know the context of what I was saying, and in fact being able to recognize context is a valuable conversational tool. But one that is happily thrown away to score a cheap point.
And why ISN’T that okay? When I say military resistance I mean just that. I don’t mean people who are protesting on the streets or distributing flyers.
If there is a martial group taking military action against my country’s soldiers then that is more or less a combative military action that here in the real world we could break down and call “waging war.” I’m sorry if it seems xenophobic or “insane” to say I want my military to hunt down and kill enemy soldiers that are waging war against them.
I didn’t say “I hope they all die terrible deaths” I don’t hope that, I’m a Christian and sincerely wish this all could be resolved with no more loss of life. I didn’t say “I want them to die” I said they should be hunted down and killed, as military threats that is the only appropriate option. Now if we have a cease-fire then it’s a different matter, but as long as they are actively waging war against us they are enemy combatants, and if me saying I want my armed forces to destroy the enemy is ludicrous, out of line, et cetera then I am sorry. But I don’t think it violates the rules of this message board.
I don’t see it as any different from a thread where people postulate on what the correct military action in X situation would be, this isn’t about killing people as it was about a military course of action I felt was appropriate.
You may not realize it but you have indeed answered my questions…and in a most excellent way.
But first, let me say that I obviously can’t (and wouldn’t) ask my questions of the little girl’s father. For one thing, it would be highly inappropriate given the grievous state he’s undoubtedly in, and secondly you are the one posting your comments and giving your point of view, so you are the logical one for me to ask.
As for the remainder of your post, I won’t quote it in its entirety for the sake of saving space here as you already know what you said.
First, let me thank you for your insightful post. As you know from my questions, I’ve been perplexed by the fact that you seem much more angry at the U.S. and its allies over the civilian deaths that are occurring in Iraq than you have seemed to be over the much greater amount of innocent deaths and genuine torture (such as the breaking of innocent children’s bones in front of their parents as part of the innocent parents’ torture) that occurred routinely under Hussein’s regime. It just didn’t make sense to me.
But now I understand that what you really are is fearful that life as you’ve known it and thought it best to be in the Middle East is threatened by the possible adoption of Western values and lifestyle in the Middle East. So to you, the matter isn’t just the loss of innocent lives but the loss of an entire peoples’ way of life, one which would be supplanted by a way of life that you detest.
Thus it appears to me (though I readily admit I’m not a psychologist) that what you are really angry at and fearful of is the advance or adoption of Western values and lifestyle in the Middle East…and that the anger you feel (which I have no doubt is genuine) toward the U.S. over Iraqi deaths, though fewer than under Hussein’s regime, is to a large degree transference of these other fears and concerns.
To me, this goes a long way toward explaining the apparent incongruity of your seeming to be less concerned over the more numerous deaths inflicted by Hussein’s regime than by the lesser ones resulting from the U.S. action there.
As a member of the conservative wing of this country’s population, I can understand your belief that life the way you’ve known it and believed to be proper is something that you don’t want to see changed. I can tell you though that, based on my experience, even if it does change there will be things that will be better even if other things are worse. I can also tell you that your impression of American life, and its population’s way of thinking and what motivate it, is highly distorted. Many of the things you fear simply are not so, though I can see how they would appear to be so to you.
But I will not try to persuade you of this now. For one thing, I’m sure it would be quite unlikely that I would be able do so, and secondly I doubt very seriously that life under a democratic society in Iraq would be very much like the one in the U.S. anyway.
But you’ve given me a valuable insight into the concerns of those in the Middle East regarding our action in Iraq that I had not really taken into account before, at least not in its proper context, and I thank you for your post.
And to jump ahead a little on another subject, thank you also for your comments below about the difference in Arabic terminology when complimenting someone’s child. Yet another valuable insight you have provided by virtue of your participation here. The more we can talk to and understand each other, the better for us all, I believe.
Regards,
SA
As well, Ald, you have the opportunity to be schooled by your benefactors in a crucial aspect of American foreign policy: flexibility. We are enormously flexible! It is undeniably true that this war was started under false premises of self-protection, to rid the dreaded Saddam of his nuclear-anthrax intercontinental Drones of Death. When these proved to be inconveniently non-existent, we simply altered our history. It’s official now, as SA can verify, we are on a mission to extend democracy and freedom to the One Sitting in Darkness, at gunpoint, if need be. Tough love. Very tough love.
Consider ObL. If he had such gifts, the removal of American forces from Saudi Arabia would present no difficulty, he could merely state, with a straight face copied from The Leader, that his goal was the liberation of American Muslims, that had always been his goal, and his previous statements are inoperative, and no longer exist.
Flexibility, Ald. A great boon to WestCiv, and one which we extend to you in an act of fulsome, armed generosity. It is sad that you persist in being ungrateful.
You know, luci, sometimes I think you’re smart. Sometimes I think you’re funny. Sometimes I even think you’re smart and funny. Other times (and this would be much more often) I think you’re about as full of crap as it is possible to be. This is one of those times.
Oh, well…at least you don’t fail to disappoint.
Oh, dear! Another night of crying myself to sleep and clutching my banky!
Aldebaran, do you consider the Iraqi’s who support the USA invasion to be traitors?
Both of 'em?
SA,
Excuse me?
Let me ask you since when exactly you became so outraged about what US Friend Saddam Hussein did to some amount of the populaton of Iraq?
Let me ask you secondly how come you dare to claim that I was not enraged because of the hypocrisy of the West regarding the Great Friend and Buddy and his gradually developping Lunatical madness?
You have a lot of nerve, haven’t you?
I have no fears at all.
You are the one who fails to see what your criminal country is trying to do.
They want to install US style Capitalism for the profit of the USA.
Not for the “good” of the Iraqi people.
They have the arrogance to think they can replace thousand years of culture and lifestyle with their brand of “civilisation”.
Not for the good or Iraqi civilians. For the US economy.
They have no scrupules at all to disturb other civilisations, try to uproot long standing traditions try to saw greed and want and consumerism for the sole profit of the USA.
My mother was European. My roots are both Middle Eastern Arab and European.
I am in an outstanding position to see what is right and what is wrong in both cultures.
To merely suggest that I “detest” my mother, her family and their way of life and culture is an insult beyond imagination. Can you realize this or are you too far away from normal thinking that you can not imagine this to be possible.
Go back to class I in psychology. You only project your ignorance and false ideas onto what you think to read in my posts, but what is not even remotely there.
How dare you even suggest (TWICE in this very same post) to know what I think on matters you have no clue about at all.
I’m going to take here a little practice in a newly acquired skill that seems to be a necessity on this forum an mix it with my Arab heritage for adding a genuine couleur locale:
Fuck you, you arrogant patronising pig.
(If this can be done better, let me know. I must be immerged and drowned in the Great US Culture for being tolerated on this message board)
Repeat: I have no fears at all. For the rest: Likewise and much much more.
I have friends in the USA who say they envy me (not in a wrong way) and I would not want to live in the USA if someone tried to make me do it at gunpoint. Take that one for contemplating about.
Next: If you want to believe that the USA just can take out thousands of years of culture and replace it with MacDonald “culture” and “values” in a blink of an eye, be my guest.
Sadly enough your whole carefully written and thought of litany here proves the opposite.
Salaam. A
You sure showed him, sport! He’ll never try to thank you for insight again! High-five!
The reasons why they act in coordination with the USA are various.
From political greed over simply the fact that Hero Criminal Bremer made the whole army, the whole police, every civil servant you can think of jobless in one strike of a criminal pen.
Those who join the police forces now do that to have a job. There are almost no other jobs that pay at least “something”. People need to feed their families, don’t they?
Others choose to risk to die fighting the ivaders over taking their bribes and left -overs while the Big Money and Big Jobs is for foreigners (Haliburton and Contractors ring a bell?)
If I would translate witness reports I have about how Iraqis who work for the US army are sometimes treated, you would once again see how they are acting as if they are the Masters of the Towel Heads Slaves.
If Criminal Bremer would not have come to his criminal ideas that Capitalism could rise as a phenix out of chaos and destruction, if the USA would have taken the hint that they could bribe a whole lot of the Uppr Staff of the Iraqi army and police forces into cooperation right after the invastion, you would not have seen what you see now.
Or how do you think the USA would look like if every ilitary, every police, every civil servant ould be dismissed and the country hence delivered to anarchy and chaos?
By the way:
What has this to do with my OP?
GD has a thread running with clear proof that US members are not even noticed when calling for death and killings. Even for killings of US soldiers. Gaudere made some remarks there, but not to the post I mentioned at all.
The same in this one. Where is the “warning” to friend Martin calling for “hunting me down and killing” me because I disagree with his views on who should be murdered by whom?
Why is the cool-o-meter that was brought into practice for “judging” my post(s) suddenly malfunctioning again?
Salaam.A
Thank you for your answer.
I would say it was during the war with Iran when it became apparent Iraqi men pressed into service were no more than cannon fodder for the Iranians in a war that could not be won but which was continued so Hussein could try to save face. This same type of action was taken again during the Gulf War when he had Iraqi men pulled from their homes, places of work and even night clubs, and stuck in holes in the dessert, some with their slacks and dress shoes still on, simply to become fodder for U.S. forces so Hussein could try to save face and try to appear to be standing up to the U.S. It was also about the time I began to learn of people being executed at Hussein’s whim or for political expediency, and about the time I started hearing stories of people being fed feet-first into wood chippers. It was also about the time I heard of a woman who went to plead with Hussein for the return of her husband who had been spirited away from his bed in the middle of the night, and was told by Hussein that he would return her husband the next day, which he did…in pieces in a garbage bag. And when I heard of little children having their arms and legs broken in front of their parents, as I mentioned before.
I could go on for pages. Shall I?
The point is that your assumption that I’m both ignorant of Iraqi suffering under Hussein and uncaring about the fate of Iraqis is completely erroneous.
Sorry, but I’m gonna have to ask for a cite on this as I never said or implied any such thing.
Only to the close-minded, it appears.
You don’t fear a middle east where old people are put in homes, babies are sent to day care, and everyone works hundred hour weeks to pay for multiple television sets? Sorry again, but it sounds to me like you are.
An amazing number of innacuracies for one small paragraph.
In the first place, the world is full of capitalist (as well as communist and socialist) countries with which the U.S. can do business. Why is it that you think we have to go to war to create business partners? And why do you think they have to be a democracy in order for us to do so?
Further, we do not propose to install U.S. style capitalism in Iraq. Iraq, or more accurately the people of Iraq, will be able to decide for themselves what sort of government and economy they want to live under. Why this is should be a problem to you remains to be seen, but it is becoming increasingly apparent that the wants and desires (and even the safety and welfare) of the Iraqi population is only secondary to you. Frankly, it appears you are more of the “dictator” type of mindset that wants to decree and enforce among its people the brand of customs and lifestyle that you deem desireable and that you are truly little concerned with the individual happiness and/or desires of the ordinary Iraqi citizen.
Well, my friend, you may be in that position but such clarity certainly hasn’t been the result.
Okay, my turn…Excuse me? Was not your entire indictment of the U.S. lifestyle as you perceive it not an indication that you detest it? And for you to claim that I am suggesting, as though I had any foreknowledge of your mother’s heritage and intended an insult to begin with, that I intentionally insulted either you or her is ridiculous in the extreme. I’m not even going to honor this silly accusation with an explanation.
I’m content to let your own words speak for themselves.
Ah…taking a lesson from elucidator, perhaps? Trust me, it does you no good. On a board where your (understandable) language difficulties make it difficult enough for you to be taken seriously by people who don’t understand what you’re trying to say, it only diminishes both you and your credibility to act that way.
Further, I would suggest that you are ingaging in a good deal of looking for things to take offense at. If you don’t want people to surmise what you think about things, why do you offer comment? I know of no culture in the world whose language is so precise that every listener knows exactly what is in the mind of the expositioner. So get down off your high-horse.
Well, you see, here in the U.S. people are free to live as they wish. If your friends envied you all that much they would move (and would be free to do so barring immigration restraints) where they could live like you.
Believe this if you wish, but honestly you are exposing your ignorance of both American intent and lifestyle, not to mention your incorrect assessment of my own beliefs. (And yet you are the one who gets into such high dither over someone else thinking they know what your beliefs are. Such delightful irony.)
Well, it has certainly shown that a meaningful communication with you is more likely to prove futile than I had previously thought. But still, and all in all, I don’t think you’re all that bad a guy. I’m even wondering now how much of what you’ve said to me is just typical Arabic overstatement, and whether perhaps I’ve reacted more strongly to some of the things you’ve said than I should have. But…c’est la vie. Perhaps we could eventually come to some sort of meaningful dialog, or perhaps it’s impossible, but either way we both have to say what we feel in the way we know to say it, n’est pas?
Regards,
SA
SA, you are operating on a presumption that is nowhere in evidence: that the US will bring “democracy” to Iraq. This is the basis of a patronization that you seem blind to. You suggest that Al and his ilk are afraid of the cutural changes that are just about to happen, really, just as soon as we clean out a few of these Baathist dead-enders and foreign fighters who are preventing the Iraqi people from expressing thier overwhelming gratitude for our munificence.
But what if it ain’t so? What evidence have you to offer? For all you really know, you are suggesting that Al is terrified of an invisible pink unicorn. At this point in time, Iraqi democracy is entirely theoretical, what really exists on the ground is an occupied country, occupied by a nation that purports to grand and beneficent motives (now that the previous motives are down the Memory Hole.)
Why should they believe us? Like you, if find the notion that America went to war for reasons of market expansion rather silly. But that’s from where I sit, from the point of view of a ME person, it isn’t silly at all. Likewise, I think the notion that America is at war with Islam a terrifying and dangerous falsehood, but I an entirely understand why a Muslim might think otherwise. Its kind of like a Buddhist is attacked by a gang of Presbyterians and declares war on the Baptists because he doesn’t know any difference.
When you go to war under false pretenses, you instantly legitimize other false pretenses, they become equal. When the foundation is a lie, all subsequent constructions are false, all subsequent interpretations are equally false, and hence, equally true.
Your attempt to reach out to Al is commendable, and I should have given it more credit. But you are attempting to reach out from a position that you cannot substantiate, you are asking him to meet you halfway between what he knows and what you wish. You claim we are there to bring the blessings of democracy, and further claim that the sufferings we inflict are therefore justified. Why should anyone believe us? Our quest for democracy is this years unshakeable truth, last years unshakeable truth has vanished like fog, we don’t even acknowledge that we ever said such a thing as “WMD”.
Why should they believe us?
:::::Yaaaaawnnnn::::::
Aah…but for life’s little pleasures. Don’t mind me though. By all means, as is your wont, keep posting more and more pages worth of deluded Nacionalistic tripe.
Cheers.
Well. That was interesting. Quoting a whole post just to yawn?
Perhaps RedFury hasn’t yet discovered the joys of highlight and backspace.
SA, my fine dumpling, listen to your uncle luci.
Derision, mockery and contempt, all contained inside a simple yawn = lfe’s simple pleasures.
About as good and satisfying an answer as the Bushbots deserve. We were given a choice by their Fearless Misleader and I’ve done just that: I am categorically against Him and them. Done wasting time trying to get the sorry lot back into the reality-based community through logic and common sense.
So fuck 'em all.
Capisce?
Capisce? Oh, ay, senor. *:: getting uncontrolable giggles:: *
I said uncontrolable: Heeheeheeheeheeheehee. 