Help me understand these women.

In My Humble Opinion
21

I’m not talking about deception in that sense. For some reason, perhaps it’s what they’d like to believe, a lot of women immediately think of a deceiver when they think of a womanizer.

I think part of the problem is that the seducer is going the way of the mammoth hunter. It’s become so easy for a man with anything going for him at all that little skill is required, your “hey baby” types. Men interested in becoming good at it set the bar higher for themselves for a challenge. Motivation is a limiting factor as well since your real life Don Giovanni is usually going through a phase in his youth or is basically doing it for reassurance (and so is deceiving himself). The closest thing I’ve seen to a true archetype was a fellow I knew who’s goal was, in his words, “to be the guy they’re thinking about ten years from now when they have sex with their husbands”. Still shallow but with an element of primitive male competition to it that makes it elemental.

His approach did not involve pretending to be something he was not, caring, supportive et., it was merely to remove objections. He’s kinda with your friend, no problem he’s the soul of discretion. He hasn’t got much time for you, but every moment you’re alone is special. He’s definitely sensitive and understanding in the sense that it serves his goal which is to give you the thrill of your life. He makes love with his head to the whole woman not to her sex organs. He recognizes that a certain amount of tension and teasing is necessary to the thrill. He’s always got an exit strategy and he’s always got his next three shots lined up. Women don’t even really know what he was like till years later when his name comes up and you discover that he didn’t just have one or two of your friends as you thought, he had nearly all of them Usually he’s a guy who’s not that good looking or successful or he wouldn’t feel a challenge. When women do find out what he’s like they generally want to see him put down, unless of course he’d like to reconsider and be faithful to only them. Just like Mozart said, or Eddie Murphy, “every woman’s got a secret just she and one other person knows”.

22

I’m not talking about deception in that sense. For some reason, perhaps it’s what they’d like to believe, a lot of women immediately think of a deceiver when they think of a womanizer.

Intelligence is mostly what we use to justify what we’ve done. It’s a minority that use intelligence to form inhibitions that stop them from doing what their instincts want to do.

I think part of the problem is that the seducer is going the way of the mammoth hunter. It is so easy for a man with anything going for him at all that no skill is required. Men interested in becoming good at it set the bar higher for themselves for a challenge. Motivation is a limiting factor as well since your real life Don Giovanni is usually going through a phase in his youth or is basically doing it for reassurance (and so is deceiving himself). The closest thing I’ve seen to a true archetype was a fellow I knew who’s goal was, in his words, “to be the guy they’re thinking about ten years from now when they have sex with their husbands”. Still shallow but with an element of primitive male competition to it that makes it elemental.

His approach did not involve pretending to be something he was not, caring, supportive et., it was merely to remove objections, he helps you deceive yourself if you like. He’s kinda with your friend, no problem he’s the soul of discretion. He hasn’t got much time for you, but every moment you’re alone is special. He’s definitely sensitive and understanding in the sense that it serves his goal which is to give you the thrill of your life. He makes love with his head to the whole woman not to her sex organs. He recognizes that a certain amount of tension and teasing is necessary to the thrill. He’s always got an exit strategy and he’s always got his next three shots lined up. Women don’t even really know what he was till years later when his name comes up and you discover that he didn’t just have one or two of your friends as you thought, he had nearly all of them Usually he’s a guy who’s not that good looking or successful or he wouldn’t feel a challenge. When women do find out what he’s like they generally want to see him put down, unless of course he’d like to reconsider and be faithful to only them. Just like Mozart said, or Eddie Murphy, “every woman’s got a secret just she and one other person knows”.

23

Women – anyone – can have conflicting feelings. Or can start down a path and then realize that it’s really not where they want or should go. Best guess: She had some kind of an attraction to you, made the birthday contact, made the dinner date, then had some second thoughts. What those second thoughs were, only she knows.

My advice: Talk to her, ask her directly how she feels, and tell her honestly how you feel and what you want. In the dim past, in my dating years, I’ve been in very similar circumstances to all three of yours. Only with age has come the simple wisdom that the answer is simple: Ask. Maybe this woman has a problem with (potentially) dating the ex of a friend. Maybe she decided she didn’t really like you that much after all. Maybe her dog died. Only if you ask will you know. And who knows? Perhaps if the two of you talk about it, that will be the beginning of really getting to know each other, and she may decide that whatever the seconds thoughts were are less important than she thought.

Ok, this one’s easy: She got tired of waiting for you to make an overt move. I can tell you (again from years of experience and from actually talking with women about this) that there is often a huge gap between what a woman considers an unmistakable sign of interest (on the sending side) and what a man considers an unmistakable sign (on the receiving end). I’ll bet you a hundred to one that she’s had a conversation with a girlfriend along the lines of, “What the hell is the matter with that guy? I’ve done everything but take off my clothes and jump in his lap, and he still hasn’t asked me out!” Meanwhile, you’re thinking “we seemed to get along well”.

Again, the advice is: ask. Just ask her out, directly. “Hey, would you like to have dinner with me sometime?” I totally disagree with those who say you’re reading too much into it, or that she’s nuts. Those are certainly possible, but my money says she was interested in you.

This almost always means that the relationship is not serious, and/or that she has reason to be unhappy. I say “almost always” because you certainly can’t discount that she’s just not the kind of person that mentions her boyfriend a lot; some people just get used to saying “I”, and don’t always convert to “we”.

As always, the advice is: ask. It’s a little touchier here since you work together, but given that you say there’s been “minor flirting”, you’re probably not at risk by just asking her out. You know, if you’re sincere and low key, the “Hey, would you like to have dinner sometime?” said casually, most women are able to just say, “Oh, that’s nice, but I have a kind of a boyfriend.” And then the key for you is to drop it and keep everything on a friend level. This being the workplace, it is imperative that you go no further, don’t press, and never ask anything remotely like that again. This shows her that you respect her and have accepted her answer, and more importantly it keeps you away from the sexual harassment possibility.

And you never know, she might say yes.

24

Women – anyone – can have conflicting feelings. Or can start down a path and then realize that it’s really not where they want or should go. Best guess: She had some kind of an attraction to you, made the birthday contact, made the dinner date, then had some second thoughts. What those second thoughs were, only she knows.

My advice: Talk to her, ask her directly how she feels, and tell her honestly how you feel and what you want. In the dim past, in my dating years, I’ve been in very similar circumstances to all three of yours. Only with age has come the simple wisdom that the answer is simple: Ask. Maybe this woman has a problem with (potentially) dating the ex of a friend. Maybe she decided she didn’t really like you that much after all. Maybe her dog died. Only if you ask will you know. And who knows? Perhaps if the two of you talk about it, that will be the beginning of really getting to know each other, and she may decide that whatever the seconds thoughts were are less important than she thought.

Ok, this one’s easy: She got tired of waiting for you to make an overt move. I can tell you (again from years of experience and from actually talking with women about this) that there is often a huge gap between what a woman considers an unmistakable sign of interest (on the sending side) and what a man considers an unmistakable sign (on the receiving end). I’ll bet you a hundred to one that she’s had a conversation with a girlfriend along the lines of, “What the hell is the matter with that guy? I’ve done everything but take off my clothes and jump in his lap, and he still hasn’t asked me out!” Meanwhile, you’re thinking “we seemed to get along well”.

Again, the advice is: ask. Just ask her out, directly. “Hey, would you like to have dinner with me sometime?” I totally disagree with those who say you’re reading too much into it, or that she’s nuts. Those are certainly possible, but my money says she was interested in you.

This almost always means that the relationship is not serious, and/or that she has reason to be unhappy. I say “almost always” because you certainly can’t discount that she’s just not the kind of person that mentions her boyfriend a lot; some people just get used to saying “I”, and don’t always convert to “we”.

As always, the advice is: ask. It’s a little touchier here since you work together, but given that you say there’s been “minor flirting”, you’re probably not at risk by just asking her out. You know, if you’re sincere and low key, the “Hey, would you like to have dinner sometime?” said casually, most women are able to just say, “Oh, that’s nice, but I have a kind of a boyfriend.” And then the key for you is to drop it and keep everything on a friend level. This being the workplace, it is imperative that you go no further, don’t press, and never ask anything remotely like that again. This shows her that you respect her and have accepted her answer, and more importantly it keeps you away from the sexual harassment possibility.

And you never know, she might say yes.

25

My take on these women:

#1. My guess is that she suddenly remembered it was your birthday, so decided it’d be nice to send you her best wishes. However, once you got to the point of asking her for dinner, just as friends or otherwise, she decided that it might tick off your ex and got cold feet about it. Not fair to you, but it could put her in a painful position if she did choose to become better friends with you, depending on how catty your ex is.

#2. This woman is a virtual stranger. She may or may not remember you as well as you do her, since she deals with lots of people every day. Honestly, were I her, I’d probably be creeped out by a customer being so familiar as to comment on my clothes, and maybe avoid him in the future, too. Being nice to customers is part of her job, and I bet she wasn’t prepared to deal with one of her customers seeing it as flirting.

#3. You’ve only been talking to her for a week, right? I’ve met lots of people of both sexes who didn’t mention if they were involved right away, simply because it never came up or they were shy about their personal lives. However, this person sounds like she’s at least interested in being friends, so be friendly, but not too forward until she says she’s avalible, and see where it goes.

26

I’ve reopened this thread so as to make it easier for me to update the situation. The first and second women are out of the picture so this deals with only the third.

We have been talking most every day, at work, on the phone after work. We have also been to lunch a few times.

I finally asked her if she was seeing someone and she said yes. She later told me that while she was seeing someone, she wasn’t intersted in him other then a boyfriend. She said something about liking him but not wanting to marry him or something along those lines. She also told me that she was attracted to me.

I’ve tried to get her to do things outside of work but so far she has hesitated. However, she said call her this Sat night as her plans have changed so she might be free. I’m also supposed to be going to her place to help her with some problems at her place.

The other day at lunch someone was putting flowers out and we started talking about them and she said she wouldn’t mind if I gave her some, so I took that as a hint and did. She liked them and looked quite happy that I had given them to her.

Now for the strange part, she’s been talking about her boyfriend, not a whole lot but more than before. I think he just doesn’t want to do things with her, or at least the things that she wants to do.

Now I think I’m really confused.

elfkin477 as for the second woman, she did know exactly who I was as she knew my name, phone number etc when I went to pick up pictures. I also did not say anything about her clothes until well after I knew she knew who I was, and I said something after she was trying to avoid me. Not that it really matters now.

27

Woman 1: Not actually interested in you, had second thoughts and ran with them. Life sucks.

Woman 2: In customer service. Its her job to be nice to you. That she remembers you means that you saw her as a real live person and she appreciates that. she probably figured out you liked her and then got scared. I work retail and all of the girls where I work have guys that we won’t wait on because they ask us out or have asked us out…mistaking our normal customer service for affection. If one of D’s guys walks through the door, she’ll go on break and I’ll take over.

This may confuse the guys in the fashion you have found. “She was so nice to me, and now she’s not.” But when customers make it personal, we have learned to back off. Its for many reaosns, not teh least of which being safety. From a personal note, I have been followed home twice in the last year by my “friends” from work. (Well, not all the way home, thanks to the big guy who works with me and pays attention to the girls.)

Woman 3: She has a boyfriend, right? does this boyfriend want her to date other people and know about you? (ie do they have an open relationship?) Otherwise, you are cutting in where you do not belong. If she dumps the guy to go out with you fine, but otherwise, don’t pressure her for a relationship. Think of it in terms of overall fairness…if you were dating her would you want her going out with other guys and having relationships with them? (And while I also see that this is her choice as well, you have to consider how much you want to be with someone who makes choices as she does.)

Personally, I would prefer to be in an open relationship, but currently I’m not. So I don’t date other people, nor would I date someone who would chose to cheat on their commiments if I was free.

28

To paraphrase Chris Rock, I think you are Number Three’s

29

Makes sence, I never really worked retail so I wouldn’t know this end. I will keep this in mind for the future.

I have no idea about the boyfriend. She has only recently started talking about him, and most of that info is useless to me. I don’t think I’ve been pressuring her for anything. I’ve asked her to do something once and she hesitated, though she’s said maybe another time. Or in the most recent case she kind of suggested that she wanted to goto the local fair tomorrow.

This is the one thing that is holding me back. Don’t want to be an inbetween, at least I don’t at this point in time.

Thanks for the info so far gals/guys, I’m a few years behind at my age. This board is a great help though.

30

I think you should simply talk to girl #3 and tell her that you would really like to date her, but only if she’s not dating her boyfriend. Then, leave it up to her to decide who she’d rather date. Right now, it sounds to me like she’s flirting with the idea of dating you instead of the boyfriend, or maybe just having a fling with you. If you don’t want to a part of the latter, make it clear that you’re only interested in the former.