Maybe you could take her to get her heathen shots. They do that down at the free clinic.
You two should break up!
Nice straw man. You leave out the next sentence where I specifically clarified what I meant by saying:
Hey look, another one! You should sell these things. I never said that raising kids as devout christians would screw them up pretty bad. I hope that you can understand why I would be slightly averted to it because I seen several kids in my family get screwed up from it, which is what I originally said.
I didn’t want this to turn into an arguement or a religious debate and I specifically tried to word the OP as to avoid it so you guys can stop attacking me if you please. I’m not attacking any of you or your beliefs, just asking for opinions or advice, something that people do every day in this forum.
Persephone wrote:
All of the above, with slightly less influence on “the Biblical stories.” I realize that Jesus probably was a real person that lived around that time period and was crucified. I just don’t believe he was god.
BTW - for those of you reading this thread for reasons other than to be the next person to put me down, she did come over tonight and she wasn’t mad at all. We rode around in her car for a few hours and had one of the longest religious conversations we’ve ever had. It was a really pleasant drive. She basically agrees with me but says she “needs” to believe because she doesn’t want to feel alone when she’s going through hard times. I personally think this is ridiculous but I kept my mouth shut. She’s normally surprisingly skeptical for a christian but she occasionally goes through phases of singing “this little light of mine” and doing the jesus loves you thing.
WHAT?! SHE’S CHRISTIAN?! Divorce her immadiately.
Now being seroius, stop being a idiot. She has the right to her belief. If she decides she needs faith in her life, it’s her choice. You could try and be a little more understanding about her beliefs.
What does your logic and rational thought tell you about the future of this relationship?
I’m sorry. I know that it must really hurt.
My gosh, Cisco, listen to yourself:
You just barely managed to reign it in, eh? You are patting yourself on the back because you managed to refrain from telling her what a big gullible dummy she is, eh?
So she “basically agrees” with you, but (my interpretation) she’s too weak-minded to be an atheist like smarty-pants you? You personally think her reasoning is “ridiculous”, but oh yeah—you respect her so much.
This isn’t a religious vs. atheist thing. It’s a respect thing. And you are lacking some respect for your girlfriend.
I dated a strong Christian for three years. I am not a strong Christian. We disagreed on some very basic elements of life because of his strong beliefs, and we had no possible future together. Well, we could have had a future together, but it would have involved him converting me, and that’s just not going to happen. We ended our relationship amicably, and now I’m happily married to someone who feels pretty much the same way as I do about religion. My best advice would be to end the relationship and hold out for one that works better for you.
I’m sorry, but I don’t think you do respect her. You seem to think, deep down in there, where you haven’t quite admitted it to yourself yet, that she’s
a) stupid
b) gullible
c) wrong-headed
and so on. You respect her, just not her beliefs? In other words, a good part of what makes her her and informs how she sees the universe and makes decisions?
If you could bring yourself to respect her as a rational person who has what she believes are good reasons for the things she believes, then I would say stick with it. But eventually she’s going to figure out that you think she’s stupid. So I would say that you need to either change your thinking or end the relationship, because there is always going to be anger there, and it won’t be long before it’s not only on your side.
yosemitebabe: Some women think it’s ridiculous for their husbands to ride motorcycles but they don’t say anything about it. Some men think it’s ridiculous for their wives to watch Trading Spaces but they keep their mouths shut. Does this show a lack of respect between these couples?
I’m sorry that they don’t hand out beliefs like birth certificates when you’re born because I didn’t get one and religion is not an issue in my life. I’m sorry that I’m not in your elite religious club but I just don’t see the issue as that much different than if I rode a motorcycle or if she watched Trading Spaces.
Cisco: It isn’t about motorcycles or TV shows. It’s about a core belief. A core belief in your girlfriend that you think is stupid and that you don’t respect. Not a superficial hobby or pasttime.
And read all the posts here. Does anyone (religious or non-religious) see your point of view? Think about it. Sorry we are not telling you what you wanted to hear. But you started the OP, you started this discussion.
Perhaps you should learn from “some women” and “some men.”
But Cisco, neither one of you is keeping your mouth shut.
You called her up and invited her over. She said, “Sure. I have something to do first, I’ll come over a little later.”
Oh wait, no she didn’t. She said: I’m going to church. Church, religion, church, church, church. I’ll come over after CHURCH.
But that’s ok. You kept your mouth shut.
Oh wait, no you didn’t. You called Advent a “cultish ritual.”
Like I said before, I’m not trying to pick on you. I have a friend who’s an athiest. If he told me he was dating a Christian, and they were arguing about religion a lot, I’d advise him to break up with her.
If you respect her, disagree quietly with her beliefs. Tell her once that you disagree and let that be the end of it.
A clarification – I wasn’t attacking your beliefs. I was putting myself in your girlfriend’s shoes and trying to look at it from her point of view – and thinking about where the main issues may lie.
IMHO, I still say that the idea of having kids with her would present the major issue. You would want to raise them one way, and she would want to raise them another way. And these two ways are so completely oppopsite that I don’t see how you would reconcile it. As you are asking for peoples’ advice – my advice is that you ought to talk to her about this issue and find out where she stands – and whether it’s something that could even be worked out. My instinct tells me it’s not.
That’s the thing, Cisco. A person’s religion is not a trivial attribute, it’s a profoundly important facet of her very self. You can’t really respect someone while simultaneously belittling her beliefs. You don’t have to hold the same beliefs, but if you say hers are “ridiculous,” you are by default saying that you think a she herself is ridiculous, at least to some extent. An atheist and a Christian (or other believer) can certainly coexist, but they each need to be able to respect the other’s beliefs at least to some degree.
What I’m hearing here is that you’re trying at least as hard to convert her as she is to convert you. I’ll bet you that her perception of that conversation is pretty different than yours and that she is downplaying what she really believes in order to make you happy. She won’t be able to do that forever, and keeping your mouth shut about how ridiculous you think her beliefs truly are isn’t going to solve the core problem either. I’m not very optimistic about the chances of both of you being happy in the long run. At the very least, you’re both probably going to have to be able to give a little, maybe a lot, in order to make it work.
You’re getting both advice and opinions. I’m sorry they’re not what you wanted to hear.
Arright. I just lost a long and far more articulate response in some cut-and-paste Mac data theft tomfoolery, so I’ll be brief for the sake of my sanity.
I’m a Christian. I realize that that means you won’t listen to another word I say, because clearly, we Christians are completely devoid of logic. But I’m saying this anyway.
Break up with her. Now. For both of your sakes. It has to happen, because it’ll happen either now or later. She believes your soul is in peril because you don’t believe what she does. You can’t blame that on her grandmother. It’s a fundamental tenet of her belief system. And because she cares about you, she will never stop trying to convert you. And, believe it or not, that matters.
Religion matters. I’m sure it’s a tough concept for someone so belligerently intolerant as yourself, but it does. It matters to Christians, who care about things like Advent and don’t, as a general rule, like being called “cultists.” It matters to you, too. You’re adamant about your belief that religion has no foundation, so much so that even the mere mention of Advent has gotten you in a tizzy. It’s more important, believe it or not, than motorcycles or Trading Spaces. And even things as insignificant as those, if the beliefs are strong enough and the relationship is given enough time, will cause conflict. If the beliefs aren’t strong–if I’m only a little bit against motorcycles or Trading Spaces, or if my spouse is willing to compromise by giving up or cutting back–then yeah, things can work. And it takes that kind of insignificant belief to keep someone’s mouth shut. But if I believe as strongly about either of those things as you and your girlfriend believe about religion, then there will be conflict. So dump her now, and save yourselves both some trouble. That’s why, as lesa pointed out on preview, you’re both already bickering about this.
So dump her, for your good and for hers. I know you didn’t want this to turn into a debate or a criticism of you, but however you worded your OP, IMO your sentiment wants criticism, so I’ve made a place for it: come on down.
Exactly, InternetLegend. I thought I saw this too. You put it quite well.
I agree with InternetLegend and yosemitebabe. I’ve had discussions like this before with past dudes of different faiths or no faith at all. You try to downplay to help them understand that you aren’t some kind of fanatic or something.
If she was being honest, or if your views are making her feel unsure about her faith, you two need to think about splitting up. Being a part of someone losing their faith is a role you don’t want to play. It will make them question their lives, and change things – and in that process you might end up splitting up anyway. And if you stay together, well, her family, if they are religious, man, they are going to be pissed at you.
In my experience, trying to have a dating relationship with someone of a different religious belief (or lack thereof) is a guarantee of a few shallow victories and many deep disappointments.
Dating and marriage are hard enough – especially marriage – without this serious rift from the very start. You will have enough challenges without this great big added one. Trust me on this.
At the risk of taking this in the wrong direction, let me explain it this way – in a serious life aspect way. It is as though you are going to marry someone who says, “well, I don’t believe in having sex. Ever. And no matter what you say, I am not ever going to change. I think people who have sex are stupid, and I know if you love me and respect me, you won’t even think about me ever having sex. It will never be a part of my life.”
And your thoughts are, “well, I really believe in sex. I think you should have sex at least once a week. Twice on some days and special days. I know if I talk to you enough about it, and you love and respect me, you’ll change your mind, and share my views and want to have sex. It will always be a part of my life.”
Just put “going to church” in place of “having sex” or “sex”. And you see what a mess you’ve got.
I wish you both luck.
PinkB
Hmmm, I don’t think so but I’ll ask her. I usually try to word my agruments carefully as to not sound like I’m trying to force my ideas on someone (“this is what I think”…etc ) but like I said, I’ll ask her. We’re pretty open with each other so she will tell me if she feels this way.
Cisco
As a fellow lover of Charlotte, I’d like to offer you my two cents. I found your post to be interesting. Normally, I don’t parse in MPSIMS, but I’m making an exception because I like you.
First and foremost, determine whether you mean the same thing by “love” that she means. If she is Christian, she means this:
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
(From 1 Corinthians 13)
Then you don’t respect me, or Polycarp, or Tris, or Mangetout, or Tomndebb, or any number of other people who indeed are rational and indeed come to the conclusion that Christianity is sound. In fact, belief in the existence of God generally is far more logical than disbelief.
I won’t attack you, but I will ask you to consider whether you would tolerate the same sort of arbitrary prejudice from her. Suppose she just couldn’t bring herself to respect your favorite hobby, your friends, or your political philosophy.
I am perfectly willing to change my ideas based on new evidence. Let’s see whether you really are willing to change your ideas once you’ve read the link I gave you above. Let’s see whether you’re willing to concede that perhaps belief in God is rational after all.
Yes. In fact, it is astoundingly wrong. It means that you have not done decent research, or else have a profound misunderstanding of what Christianity is.
Not at all, so long as you are willing to have your own errors pointed out as well.
No, not really. You’re just silly for it.
Good question. What is your answer?
There is middle ground. See Atheists for Jesus.
God go with you, Cisco, in your pursuit of love.