Help! My girlfriend is a Christian.

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
61

But RT, they can.

My hubby and I are a theist/atheist. Granted, I’m a Unitarian Dieist - so it isn’t quite the same. We have friends who are Atheist/Baptist and other friends who are Atheist/Catholic.

It can work.

But it works because both people in the relationship respect the other person in the relationship. Something sorely lacking from Cisco in his original post.

Cisco, you need to meet your girlfriend half way. Which doesn’t mean you need to convert - but you do have to understand that this is important to her and she is unlikely to change. You need to understand she gets comfort for it - and it may not be logical to you - but that is not important. You need to explain to her that you are not going to change (because girlfriends alwasy assume you will). You have to face that if you are together a long time and have kids, this may be a sticking point for you. Or, when you get married, you will be unable to get married in the RCC - perhaps another sticking point. And if you can’t come to terms on this now, don’t waste your (or her) time - find someone whose beliefs and values are more in line with your own - and let her do the same.

62

I’m an agnostic, formerly an atheist, been one or the other all my life, and I think you’re the one being an ass here. If you can’t resist taking cheap shots at her religious beliefs every time they’re brought up in conversation, you’re going to destroy the relationship. She wasn’t looking for a debate; she was informing you of her schedule.

I haven’t dated anyone who was religious, but I do have lifelong friends who are. Either you learn to “agree to disagree” and respect each other’s right to believe as they do (if not the actual beliefs they hold), it’s over for you. It’s a wonder that you’re still together as it is!

Besides, if you consider her beliefs so wrong and stupid and problematic, why do you want to date her, anyway?

63

Urban Ranger wrote:

Really? :smiley: Then you won’t mind offering your refutation of the link that you’re calling “utter bull”. Where is Tisthammer’s flaw? Specifically?

Correction: a difference of opinion is not a refutation. You apparently were unaware that the ontological argument has gotten new life since it was modalized in the 1990s.

Cecil Adams thinks there is sufficient evidence.

64

Maybe I’m missing something or I’m just ignorant of other Christian religions, but I’ve never heard of anyone not going out because it’s Advent. Advent is a time of preparation and anticipation, not necessarily penance and abstenence (like lent).

Could this be the Christian version of “I can’t go out tonight, I have to wash my hair.”?

65

I assumed she was going to an Advent service.

Dangerosa - is it possible that while your religious beliefs are different, your world views more or less coincide anyway?

66

Turner, as with most things relating to Christianity, it depends. Having been born on the second Sunday of Advent, I’m in the habit of turning that Sunday at least into a party. On the other hand, there’s an Advent wreath on the table behind me, and I do regard this as a time of mindful preparation. If the OP’s girlfriend had some more specific reason, i.e. “I can’t make it because my church is holding a special Advent service and potluck,” it could be a legitimate excuse. Also, from what I picked up of Cisco’s attitude toward Christianity, she may be reluctant to mention her church around him.

Getting back to the OP, dump her. Actually, it would be better for her to dump you, and if I were her I certainly would. I’m not against Christians and non-Christians dating or being friends. As I’ve said many times before, two of my closest friends are Wiccans who used to be Atheists, while I’m a devout Christian. The thing is, at the beginning of the friendship, we agreed that attempts at conversion were out and mutual respect was in. We also enjoy discussing religion and are willing to be open minded. You, Cisco, from what I’ve read in this thread, aren’t.

No religion or degree of religion, including atheism and agnosticism has a monopoly on wonderful people or jerks. There are also some people in all forms of religion who are out to make converts, and it sounds like you’d prefer it if your girlfriend converted to your type of agnosticism. If you can work out some sort of arrangement where attempts at conversion are off limits or fair game for both sides, you might stand a chance. Right now, though, it sounds like you consider her faith to be a form of foolishness while you think yours is the only logical position.

I’m a computer programmer by trade, which means I certainly hope I’m capable of logic. I’ve also had profound experiences which logic cannot account for, but which faith can. I also freely admit that Christianity is a crutch for me. There have been times when it’s been either use a crutch or collapse. For me to refuse to rely on the support my faith gives me is as illogical as it would be for me to rely on the help my glasses give me in seeing. Yes, I could manage without faith if I had to. I could also manage without glasses. I see no reason to do so.

Finally, as Polycarp, Libertarian, countless others and I have said time and time again, not all Christians are alike. You’ve been around here for a while. Surely you’ve noticed that? If not, just read some of the recent Pit threads involving His4Ever or check out one of the perennial threads on religion in GD. I very nearly got turned off Christianity when I was in high school, and, chances are if I’d gone to any church in town, I would have been. I don’t believe in a fire-and-brimstone, judgemental God anymore than you do. I understand the arguments made against religion in general and Christianity in particular. My reasons for being Christian are not based on real world, physical logic. They are nevertheless as valid and real to me as anything in my life. Indeed, they’re considerably more real to me than this very message board.

As I’ve see it, you’ve got two choices, lad. Accept your girlfriend’s faith as part of the complete total of what she is or allow both of you move on with your lives. If you decide not to break up, I think both of you are in for quite a bit of personal growth and that both of you may wind up re-examining what you believe. I’m in favor of that, but it is the harder course.

CJ

67

She doesn’t go to church. Her and her family dance around a totem pole for advent.

Kidding! Lighten up people, she doesn’t go to church though, her family just exchanges gifts.

68

Highjack: Personal Experience

I had this same problem. I’m atheist (I thought I was agnostic, but a year in a Catholic school made me realize, “hey, I really don’t come near believing any of this.”) and my boyfriend of a year and a half or so was some kind of religious…Christian or Wiccan or something, he didn’t describe his beliefs well enough for me to really understand what he believed.

In any case, he just could not accept the fact that I don’t believe in God. We had several long, tearful (on my part) discussions, where he told me I needed to find God, rearrange my chi, and figure myself out before I attempted to have any sort of relationship (I was just coming out of a serious depression and anxiety. I was seriously screwed up, and it wasn’t my fault.). He seemed to think that I was deliberately denying God, like I really believed in God, deep down, and I just didn’t want to admit it.

Fast forward a couple weeks. This comment made me realize that there is no hope for this relationship: “I feel like I have to choose between you and God.” I had never ridiculed his beliefs, I never had any problem with his being a theist.

So I called him up a few days later and told him that if he really felt that strongly, I was willing to just be his friend.

That was a month or two ago, and I’m really kind of ripped up that the relationship ended, because I loved him and I still do. I only wish that he had been secure enough to accept my beliefs, because I really thought that it could have worked otherwise.

End Highjack: Personal Experience

I don’t think it’s gonna work, man. I’m terribly sorry, but when two people with two opposite viewpoints that can’t find any middle ground, then there’s no way they’ll be able to work it out.

69

I just reread my OP because you guys have really got me thinking that I said some nasty stuff. After rereading it though I stand by it. I probably could have worded it a little better, especialy this sentence:

But overall I think alot of you guys are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill and looking for a debate or an argument. How “tolerant” is that?

One of the biggest things that I’ve noticed is a continuing theme of you guys mentioning that:

What gave any of you that idea? I’ve even mentioned that she doesn’t go to church and that there’s been many occasions when we go weeks or even months without the subject coming up.

I started this thread as a way to get a few passing thoughts out of my head and I believe I’ve kept a pretty light heart and been fairly humorous and non-defensive in this and the PIT thread that someone felt compelled to start, but some of you people are just out for blood.

Please try to lighten up and stop assuming I’m a horrible person because I have some problems with religion (Christianity in general.) I’ll make a conscious effort to concentrate my loathing on the religion and not the followers of the religion. I love this board and I would hate to think that after all this time as a neutral, pretty much unknown name here, I’ve suddenly garnered a reputation as a jerk because of one stupid thread that everybody had to get up-in-arms about.

70

Errr, that should read ‘Christianity in particular’, not ‘Christianity in general.’

71

No, I don’t think you’re a jerk, Cisco. I think if we thought you were a big ol’ stinking jerk, the pit thread would be far less civil than it is. I wouldn’t worry about that too much if I were you.

But I’m not sure you really know how big of a deal your girlfriend’s religion is to her. It might be no big deal at all, but none of us are getting that from you. If she was lukewarm and wishy-washy, you wouldn’t have started this thread, I don’t think.

Just because she doesn’t discuss religion with you regularly doesn’t mean it’s not important to her. I don’t always discuss religion with a lot of my friends. I can be very careful about it, actually. I’ve given the impression to some acquaintences that I don’t give a damn because I am so silent on the subject, but I do give a damn—very much. I just try to be careful about what I say. I especially try to be careful when I suspect the people I am with may either start to argue with me, or who might misinterpret my bringing up religion as “preaching”.

You never know. She might not bring it up all that often because she doesn’t always want to get into it with you.

72

I don’t go to church.

73

I have never understood the illogical way in which people who do not tolerate Christianity lambast Christians for their intolerance. Apparently Christians are so intolerant that they cannot be tolerated.:wink:

Seriously, Cisco, if your girlfriend doesn’t go to church very often and allows months to go by without even mentioning it…as you stated above…then why is it causing you such problems? Is it because she is more tolerant of your athiesm than you are of her Christianity? Does it just BUG you that she believes in all that silly stuff about Jesus? I don’t see how telling her that Advent is a “cultist ritual” is any less offensive than her telling you that “Jesus loves you.” Neither one of you can resist the urge to try to convert the other.

People who argue about the logic of Christianity are missing the point, anyway; it isn’t supposed to be logical. Jesus said in the New Testament that the Jews were always asking for “signs,” and he wasn’t going to give them any because they were supposed to take him on faith. Asking for logic and proof in religious beliefs kind of ruins the whole point. The magic of religion for the millions of people who practice it is the faith it gives them that there is something beyond logic and reason…it gives them hope even in the face of all logical odds.

The validity of Christianity isn’t your call to make for anyone other than yourself. The only thing you need to know is that she has faith; how logical her faith is really isn’t your business. And the only question you need to ask yourself is whether or not you two can both tolerate the fact that you have completely opposing belief systems…who’s right and who’s wrong is immaterial. If, deep in the back of your mind, you’re always thinking, “But I’m right!” and you can’t honestly respect her beliefs…and vice versa…this relationship has no real future.

Religious beliefs are not television shows. They make up a large part of who a person is; accepting that person means accepting their beliefs, regardless of your own. If you can’t do that, it doesn’t make you a bad person; it just makes you two a bad match.

74

Audrey Levins wrote:

Well, I will be more than happy to oblige my Jewish friends with a sign: ;j

75

The title of the op is Help! My Girlfriend is a Christian. I apologize if it seems that I came on too strong, I actually thought that you were asking for opinions. Actually you were just posting to get some thoughts out and would have been much better off if people had just said yea, ok, I agree, you are right, what a bummer, what a stinky girlfriend, etc. and hadn’t actually posted thought out heart-felt opinions. Our bad. You have either taken offense or came back defensive on every post made. No one meant any harm to you or your relationship. You stated facts and we responded. You add more to the story after every doper makes a suggestion. Soon it may get to the point there you don’t get any responses to your threads because people aren’t here to debate you over your threads.

76

Ummmm. . . if she is as Christian as you say she is, she will. . . You can count on it.

You should really consider ending this thing now, it will just get worse.

77

(originally posted in the related Pit Thread)

Cisco -

The (not so) easy answer is to end the relationship - that would be my recommendation. You can sit around hoping she’ll drop her beliefs, and she very well might - or they might get stronger and annoy you even more - is that a chance you want to take? Surely you realize she’s on the other side probably thinking you’ll have a come-to-Jesus moment at some point and all will be puppies and bunnies and angels with wings.

I also understand your position about not respecting beliefs while still respecting the individual (although you did kind of get tripped up by your own words as pointed out earlier). You can happily lack all respect for a belief while respecting someone’s right to hold it - I think the Heaven’s Gate cult’s beliefs were stupid, irrational, ignorant, and an assortment of other negative words; however, it’s their right to believe what they want.

A belief does not inherently have some sort of magical shroud around it that protects it from criticism. Yes, I realize that people’s religious beliefs are very personal and important to them - and I think we both agree that the reply to that is: so what?

And finally, my wife and I are much the same - we’re not phone people and if one of us has a show about to start, it’s no big deal to say “gotta go, my show is on!” I recommend some folks lighten up on this one - your relationships may be different, that’s fine and hooray for you.

78

Cisco’s position is not unreasonable, but it seems to follow that the only logical conclusion is that he shouldn’t be dating this woman.

I was once close friends with a woman who was a fundamentalist Christian (I’m an agnostic with atheist leanings). I was attracted to her and I’m pretty sure she was to me, as well. In many ways we would have been perfect together as a couple but I knew I could never get past her rigid fundamentalist beliefs, not the least of which was the no-sex-before-marriage rule, and we had the good sense not to get involved.

For all of you who are simply appalled at Cisco’s refusal to respect someone else’s belief system should remember that attitude the next time someone on the SDMB starts a thread about UFO’s or government conspiracies or something. I’m not trying to start a debate here about the relative merits of those topics vs religion, but they do have a lot in common, and it seems that some Dopers would die to defend one’s religious choice but have no problem flagging a UFO buff or conspiracy theorist as a nut case, an idiot, or both.

79

I think the difference, pestie (and superhead), lies in the part where Cisco is thinking of marrying this girl and raising children with her. Lots of people don’t think much of Christianity as a belief system, OK, I don’t care much. But if you’re going to marry someone, it’s a bit different. Someone who wants to marry a UFO buff had better be willing to live with someone who believes in UFOs, no matter what everyone else says about UFO buffs. If Cisco doesn’t think much of Christianity and wants to marry a Christian, then there will be problems unless he changes his attitude.

80

Moderator’s Notes: Well, this thread is slowly devolving.

Let’s remember: a) that it’s not a Pit thread, so comments like, “I think you’re the one being an ass here” are not permitted; b) it’s not a GQ thread and while GQ type answers such as the origin of the advent aren’t totally inappropriate, there is a better place for 'em and I encourage y’all to use it; and finally,c) it ain’t a GD thread, so we aren’t going have a big ontological to-do either. This is MPSIMS and Cisco has simply asked for advice. If you’re gonna post here, let’s keep it to that, if ya don’t mind.

What I’d really like to do, since, if this continues I’m certain there’ll be tears before bedtime (so to speak), is close this thread. I will, however, only do so with the consent of Cisco. It’s your call, man.