Allright Kirkland, now you’re really acting like an asshole. It’s good to be passionate about things you believe in, but being right does not give you the right to abuse people. “Evil Incarnate?” Don’t become a self-parody.
Being right gives you the responsibility to stop those who are spreading lies.
Good people do not coddle those who spread lies about Catholics, do not apologize to those who spread lies about gays, do not associate in any sort of way with those who spread lies about Mormons.
I, Guin and others are right about Catholicism, she is wrong – she is spreading horrible, hateful lies. That gives me the right to condemn her as a liar. And that she has refused to acknolwedge her facts as lies and apologize, she therefore must be considered an intentional liar, and therefore evil. Therefore everyone should condemn her. Condemn her until she either develops some intelligence, or leaves the Internet so scarred and burned that she never dare speak another word about Catholicism.
Monty is right about Mormonism, she is wrong. Same situation.
Gobear, I and countless others are right about homosexuality, and she is wrong. Same situation.
Why coddle her? You can’t make blind people see. You can’t make stupid people smart.
Kirk
Yet people are coddling her, hugging her, begging her forgiveness for treating her like she deserves to be treated. That is tantamount to giving aid and comfort to the enemy in a war. They are helping her spread lies about everyone she hates.
They are helping her to spread lies about gays. That is abusing me.
They are helping her to spread lies about Catholics. That abuses all the Catholics here.
They are helping her spread lies about Mormons. That abuses Monty, among others.
Why don’t you wake up and realize that she’s the enemy of all good, decent people in the categories mentioned above, and do the right thing, and condemn HER, and not the people who SHE has WRONGED.
Kirk
Why condemn anyone? None of us is above sin. Why not return love for hate? Why not praise God when we are persecuted?
I started the apology fest, I suppose, so let me tell you, Kirkland, why.
I apologized because my actions were wrong and sinful, thus my religion requires that I atone. It has nothing to do with His4Ever’s actions nor with what I anticipate her reaction being. I made mistakes, therefore, I apologized. That apology in no way indicates agreement or lack of agreement. It simply means that I was wrong.
CJ
Because liars deserve to be condemned, lest someone else begin to believe their bullshit.
Because it won’t stop the liars. People like H4E are evil, totally, unsalvagably evil. They spread lies about everything they discuss.
Which God? Polycarp’s? His4’s? They’re not the same entity. They’re not even remotely similar.
And I’m not so sure that I believe in either of them any more, so why should I give a crap about praising an entity who, by one version of it, will burn me in hell for all eternity for the sin of being honest. If that’s who God is, then fuck God and everyone who worships him.
Kirk
Kirkland wrote:
But you lie, too. Do you claim you don’t?
But that itself is a lie.
The God Who is love.
You might be surprised at how many people you’re convincing that His4ever is a saint.
Why is unimportant. All that matters is that you’ve brought this demon back fully into the fold. Now, thanks to you and those dumb enough to follow your example all the Catholics here, all the Mormons here, all the gays here will suffer even greater abuse at the hands of this evil person.
Thanks a lot. Really. What a wonderful thing you have done.
Kirk
Sure, I lie. And if someone catches me lying, I would hope they would condemn me for it.
And anyone who would ever view His4Ever in any sort of favorable light, much less as a saint, is already a horrible, bigotted person, and thus their opinion is meaningless and wrong.
Kirk
So, umm, where’s the love, understanding, tolerance, prayer and hope that by being rational human beings we can accomplish something other than making people feel bad (on all sides)?
Geez, people.
Kirkland
Well, you’ve certainly convinced me.
His4ever
I apologize for the times I was heavy handed with you. Please forgive me, and I will try to be gentler.
So I’m supposed to be loving and understanding to the evil people who have rendered me a second-class citizen, who spread lies about a religion I may not fully buy into any loinger, but have a strong emotional attachment to, and who also lie frequently about the beliefs of others?
Sure, I’ll be loving and understanding. Just as soon as they cease lying about me, cease lying about gays, cease lying about Catholics, cease lying about Mormons and others.
I’d love to be able to treat them with love and understanding. Just as soon as they do so for me. They started the problem with their lies, its on them to end it by recanting, confessing and begging forgiveness.
Kirk
Kirkland, I wonder why you are directing all your anger toward me when I’m not the only person on this board who believes the way I do about at least one of the subjects you mention. I’ve read posts by others like Joe_Cool who confirm what the Bible says about a certain thing yet you don’t rail against him/her. You keep calling me a liar and evil, etc etc. Why is it lying to repeat what God says about something? Especially when I’m asked a direct question about it. And as to Mormonism and Catholicism, I’m familiar with some of their beliefs and I simply don’t agree with them. I never said that there couldn’t be true Christians that are part of these religions. Surely I can give my opinion and beliefs about something the same as everyone else can. I don’t know, there seems to be something very amiss here. I stand by what God’s word says about certain things and if for that reason you must hate me, I guess that’s your privilege. Perhaps you don’t, but I believe it’s God’s word, not just myths or legends of an old book. Sorry if that bothers you. I’m concerned about you and wonder why you must be so nasty toward me. It doesn’t help anything. In Christ, His4ever
So I’m supposed to be loving and understanding to the evil people who have rendered me a second-class citizen, who spread lies about a religion I may not fully buy into any loinger, but have a strong emotional attachment to, and who also lie frequently about the beliefs of others?
Sure, I’ll be loving and understanding. Just as soon as they cease lying about me, cease lying about gays, cease lying about Catholics, cease lying about Mormons and others.
I’d love to be able to treat them with love and understanding. Just as soon as they do so for me. They started the problem with their lies, its on them to end it by recanting, confessing and begging forgiveness.
Kirk
Kirkland, I surely don’t understand why all your frustrations seem to be directed at me since I’m not the only person her who believes as I do about certain things. Don’t know why you need to call me a liar and evil either. How is it lying to repeat what God says about something in His word, especially if I’m directly asked about it? And yes, I believe it’s His word, not just an old collection of myths as some do. I’m concerned about you. Why do you feel the need to talk about me as you do? And I’m by no means a saint, unless it’s only in the fact that God considers all those who’ve put their trust in Christ to be His saints. As to your comments about Mormonism and Catholicism, I’m familiar with some of their beliefs and I don’t agree with them. I never said their couldn’t be true Christians involved in these religions. Anyway, I’m sorry you feel as you do and my prayers and thoughts are with you. In Christ, His4ever
The more and more I think about this, the angrier and angrier I get. I want to beat some sense into quite a few of you, especially some of you I think who are being extraordinairly provoking.
How the fuck do you think you’re going to get someone to change be reviling them and sending hurtful and harsh words? How does that make you any better? HOW?!?! Aren’t you Christian types supposed to love, support and offer guidance to people who need it? Apologizing for your fucking actions and offering friendship, tolerance love, isn’t that a Christian, or indeed, damn decent human trait?
fuck. I know that blowing up and getting angry isn’t really helpful, but this has made me so damn mad. I’m sorry.
Sorry, don’t know why the double post.
Forgive me for using you as the example yet again, His4Ever, but I think you need to hear something here.
When I first “met” Kirkland online two years ago, he was a recent convert to Catholicism, on fire for the Lord, knowledgeable as only a convert can be about his new faith, willing to patiently explain what some concept meant over and over and over again, a sheer joy to behold as a brother in Christ. And his sexuality was well shut and locked into the closet.
Words have power. If you haven’t gotten the message from gobear’s posts yet, people who believe as you do are quite happy to deny gay people the right to marry, the right to visit their beloved in the hospital, the right to leave their worldly goods to the person they love when they die, the right to rent a decent home, the right to hold a decent job, the right to walk down the street unmolested by people full of hate, even in extreme cases the right to remain alive.
Kirkland’s faith has been trashed by people who are not willing to listen to what they have to say about what is possible and not possible for them to do, how they feel, what they’ve been through, who they really are – and instead take the same four passages of Scripture to paint them as evil, hateful people in a conspiracy to destroy the idea of a family and most of the moral standards of America – which I can vouch full well that they are mostly doing no such thing.
You have every right to hold your opinions, and hopefully by interacting with others here to share them, to reshape them based on what you’ve learned (e.g., that Jack Chick is in error on what he understands Catholics and Mormons to believe). That doesn’t mean you need to become a Catholic or a Mormon; it means you know what they truly do believe, and disagree with it, instead of objecting to myths about their faith.
It means that you treat your gay brothers and sisters with the love and compassion that Jesus would, not with cold quotations from the Bible on their particular sins.
It is on the hands of the people who use the Bible for hateful purposes that the blood of those who turn away from God because of their hate will rest. And it will be a day of wrath for those who, out of their love for the Bible, support those who preach hate in God’s name.
Your choice is quite simple. Can you show Christian love (and I emphatically do not mean warning about what happens to unrepentant sinners) to the people who have reviled you here? It will not mean renouncing your belief in the Bible as God’s word; it will simply mean employing the part of that book where Jesus tells us how to treat our fellow man, rather than the codified commandments of what Christians (or anybody else who fears God’s judgment) shalt not do.
Can you love Kirkland or gobear in Christ’s name, as your brothers for whom He died? Or is it more important to rub in to them that they are forever condemned, without hope of true repentance and amendment of life, by your understanding of a couple of passages in the Bible? Because on the basis of the many-times-repeated fact that gays cannot change their orientation and God condemns gay sex and thought is as bad as deed when it comes to sex, they’re in a Catch-22 situation – and the last thing they need is to be harassed in this earthly life before they go to their punishment.
Or maybe, just maybe, can you conceive of a God so compassionate that He understands what a gay person is going through, and loving enough to forgive them.
Because He did.
Your words have power to condemn, whether you meant them to or not. Kirkland then and now stands as an object lesson. Will you damn him with your quotes? Or will you show him that God’s love includes him too?
I’d like to preach that message to every evangelical, fundamentalist, and literalist in the U.S. I get the chance only to say it to you.
What will you choose?
I just realized after hitting submit that the second line of this could be read as alleging that His4Ever and her co-religionists were all doing this stuff. What I meant was, of course, “some of the people who believe as you do are quite happy to deny gay people…”
Sorry Lib; on reflection, you’re right and I see nothing in your posts that warrants the reaction I supplied.