I don’t know. Rogers seems to be reasonably mainstream … for spree killers.
A few thoughts:
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If I’m not mistaken, statistical studies about this topic are always skewed because many people lie about having lost their virginity when they haven’t, and also some people have lots of sex while others have little or none, which skews statistics that have to do with means and averages, etc.
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Religious considerations come into play. Many (but not all) Christians believe that sex is not permitted until marriage. Other religions often also suppress sexual activity before marriage. So that is a suppressing factor for many people in America and the world.
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When it comes to dating and sex, many people embark pretty quickly on either a virtuous cycle or a vicious cycle. Specifically, success begets success and failure begets failure. The more success you have, the more confidence you have, but the more you fail, the more your confidence is destroyed and your resentment increased, which makes you even less attractive.
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Many people assume that sex and dating **is the default unless proven otherwise **(I.e., “*You’re pretty! You’re handsome! You’re smart! You’re this-or-that. Why don’t you have a boyfriend/girlfriend, why aren’t you laid yet?” * The assumption is that if someone meets a reasonable threshold X of decency/attractiveness/IQ/personality, that they will be laid or have a significant other. That is a faulty assumption. You don’t get a job, or a promotion, merely by existing and meeting a certain level of competence. It takes more success/luck than that, and the same applies in many cases of relationships.
If you read the media there are a substantial proportion of women who believe in women’s liberation–and thus are not limited to old-fashioned views of dating.
True story, from my USMC Boot Camp days (when I was still a virgin). In military classes the instructor often begins the class with a joke or a story, as an icebreaker. In one class we had the entire series in a large classroom. A series is comprised of four platoons, so about 240 Marine Recruits were seated, along with our 4-8 Drill Instructors.
The instructor probably wanted to open with a joke, and he says, “Good morning, recruits! Okay, if you are a virgin, stand and be counted!”
Before I realized what my leg muscles were doing, there I found myself, Private Bullitt, standing alone among some 250 seated Marines. Nobody else was standing. There was total silence in the room, you could’ve heard a pin drop. The class instructor just looked down and shook his head. I’d unintentionally botched his entire intro.
Later when we returned to our squad bay, one fellow recruit, Mike Co***ll from my platoon, a tall redeaded guy, came up to me and consoling, said, “Don’t worry, Bullitt, I’m sure there were many others in there. You were the only one brave enough to tell the truth.”
I’ll always remember Mike Coll for that. Thank you, Private Coll.
Memories from MCRD San Diego in 1980, Platoon 1016. We all graduated on 25 April 1980, ready to take on the world.
Not to hijack, but whenever this topic comes up, it illustrates a gender equality issue; that despite people talking all the time about gender equality, the vast majority - whether consciously or subconsciously - still believe that genders should have different roles. It is still much less common for a woman to initiate a date by asking a man out, or, even, when in a relationship, to propose marriage to a man, etc. than vice versa. Feminism has done relatively little to change that.
I think the problem with the guys like Rodger is that somehow, they’re missing a part of the puzzle, and then let it ferment into hatred and/or misogyny.
The guys I’ve known like him have always been awkward and lacking confidence around women, and as a result, feed a vicious circle in that they are awkward, they do awkward stuff around women, get rejected in some fashion, which only makes them more self-conscious and more likely to be even more awkward.
The kicker is that some of them have a toxic mix of being unable to recognize that they’re their own problem, an entitled attitude, hatred for those getting laid, and a willingness to blame women for their own shortcomings.
Mix that with a touch of mental illness, and you get Elliott Rodger, instead of the thousands of depressed loners who are most certainly out there, but who aren’t shooting people.
I don’t think it’s an expectation that women ask these guys out, it’s that they do try to ask women out, but are spectacularly unsuccessful at it. They still feel entitled to female companionship, so after a while they start blaming the women, rather than stepping back and taking a good hard look at what they’re doing and how they might do it better.
In some sense, it’s understandable. It’s not like it’s something that your parents typically model for you- you’re either seeing your parents as a married couple, or if they’re dating, you’re not on the dates as a kid. Your friends aren’t always good either when you’re young- most of the time they don’t know what they’re doing either.
And people aren’t usually good at feedback, often for fear of hurting someone’s feelings. So they’ll let you down gently, instead of saying something like “I don’t want to go out with you, and next girl you ask out, don’t talk about your fungus collection right off the bat.”
Television and movies are spectacularly unrealistic for the most part; dating and relationships are usually played for drama, laughs or as a way to advance the plot. As such, their portrayals are rarely accurate or something you’d want to learn from.
And being an auto-didact is tough; the signal to noise ratio is probably staggeringly low on books/websites for dating/getting laid, or is so generic as to be practically useless.
So these guys are probably mostly only suffering from an inability to learn from their mistakes, probably because they don’t know what their mistakes are.
Ha, wow. Good story, thanks for sharing.
But yes - with regards to anything considered shameful (i.e., voting for Trump, being a virgin, etc.) you will always have polls skewed against the shameful outcome. So people will be convinced that only a tiny minority are virgins, or a tiny minority support Trump, etc. when in fact that minority might be much bigger, or, even, a majority.
The Bradley Effect applies to so many things…
I thought the standard convention wisdom is that sociopaths are highly successful in the sexual arena (as well as in nonsexual contexts- business, politics, etc…).
How come none of them have asked ME out on a date?
No matter how “liberated” a woman views herself, somehow it never seems to rise to the level of risking rejection–that’s still very much the man’s job.
I’ve wondered about some of this stuff for years. When I was in college, I asked several girls out. I never met so many liars before in my life. There were two girls who deliberately gave me false phone numbers. Everybody else was either “too busy” to date, or else claimed to already have a boyfriend.
Depends on where he goes. If he chooses places where there are far less men and a lot of women, especially women just getting by economically, and demonstrates some minimal social skills along with a comfortable level of financial means, he could have probably gotten all the dates and hook-ups he wanted.
This. People talk about the concept of having “game”, but really what they mean is understanding the various rituals and behaviors people do when trying to meet a potential mate.
Or take “pick up artists” like that guy “Mystery” who had his own reality show. It’s not like he’s teaching these guys some magic Jedi mind control shit. All he’s doing is helping them dress in a way that helps them stand out from the crowd a bit, carry themselves in a manner that doesn’t scream “shy dork”, go through some exercises to help them build confidence in approaching a girl for the purpose of striking up a conversation and learning to recognize body language so they can tell if someone is or is not interested.
I’m not an expert, but it’s my understanding that is a common misconception about people who suffer from Antisocial Personality Disorder (the DSM name for being a “sociopath”). From the DSM-5, here are some of the symptoms:
1.failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
2.deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
3.impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
4.irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
5.reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
6.consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
Other than “deception”, any of those traits sound like something that would make someone a successful politician or businessman?
I mean, we just elected someone who seems to meet the clinical definition of sociopathy to the presidency of the United States of America, so I’d say yes?
N.B. this is not a knock on Trump or Trump supporters: I didn’t vote for him, or for Clinton, but I totally understand why someone would. That being said, in a strictly non-ideological sense, he does seem to meet the clinical definition of sociopathy.
Off topic, but the whole point of that song is that “Sit Still, Look Pretty” is not what the singer wants to do. (No criticisms meant of women who do choose that strategy).
I’m pretty sure I would never have lost my virginity if I had been a guy. On the other hand, I’m also pretty sure that I would have been basically OK with it, just as I am basically OK with the fact that I stopped having sex when I stopped being a young woman surrounded by young single men, and would not under any circumstances have started writing manifestos or carrying out mass shootings.
…Russia?
Certainly, but my point was that women, at least pretty ones, can wait for men to hit on them. Men have to be way above the norm, like sports stars or rich, before they can expect women to take the initiative.
Regards,
Shodan
Basically it’s self-reinforcing. Being desperate and lacking confidence are huge turn offs, so if you’re a guy who’s in this state and self-aware of it, you fucked (unfortunately figuratively, and not literally).
Some guys have one or two bad experiences in their teens and then get this idea I’m very bad at this, and start over-thinking themselves right from the outset. Trying very hard to look confident, and being overly critical for every faux pas. And of course internally self-loathing as what kind of a man can’t get laid?
And crucially, after a while, talking to women in general, and attractive women in particular, becomes a discrete “thing”. You can’t just talk with a hot woman for a few minutes – you’ve got to psyche yourself up for something like that, and then when you’re talking to such a girl you’re trying to make something happen. Trying to impress her. Trying to get her to like you. etc
I can talk about how I personally got out of this state but it would be a hijack.
I don’t think it would be a hijack; it seems very much in keeping with the thread.
(And, yes, I’ll admit it took me far longer than it should have to become sexually active, and thus I’m always interested in hearing what that process was like for other late bloomers)
Anywhere there are single women in surplus who aren’t able to earn as much money as they would like to spend would have worked. He wouldn’t have gotten a debutante from Beverly Hills, but there were probably any number of attractive women working at retail stores, low-paying clerical jobs, waitressing at the Cheesecake Factory, etc., that if he had displayed a few very basic social skills and a willingness to pay some of their bills would have gladly snapped him up as a boyfriend. And they would have made the first move.
I know the OP isn’t referring to just men only, but for many men, there is a perfect storm of sabotage going on:
- Dating and attractiveness has a lot to do with confidence.
- Failure destroys confidence.
- Men tend to be at a disadvantage since the onus/initiative is on them, rather than on women.
- The first time is the hardest; hence one is learning to swim by entering the deep end of the pool.
- Society tells the false message that “(Almost everyone) has lost their virginity/is dating/hooking up.”
- Men have less societal support or an emotional network to lean on, and are also discouraged from expressing their feelings (not just by men, but by many women, too.)
- Because of the false message that “Everyone gets it, except you,” confidence is destroyed even more, because now the losers feel even more like losers.
- Racial and appearance discrimination (in dating and relationships) is still condoned in many circles of American society, an issue where progressivism just hasn’t caught up yet.
As a pianist I have seen this happen with other pianists. They get self-sabotaged and sabotaged by others and eventually never succeed in piano and perhaps feel miserable throughout. It would be worse if one said, “Everyone gets it, why don’t you?”, all the more so since many people don’t play piano.
This is comparable to throwing someone who has barely started learning how to play piano, on to stage, and then booing him for a poor performance. Or expecting a beginner mountain climber to be scaling K2 within a week.