How about you talk a little bit about your own family, etv78?
Okay, sorry. But the OP isn’t. Don’t your parents ever visit? How can they not know what’s going on? Don’t you think they suspect anything? Don’t they ever visit you? I don’t think this is black and white at all. That’s the problem.
My situation is sort of complicated. Basically, I used to live with a friend. My parents have seen my friend’s place and it is TINY, so they would never dream of visiting me there (really, no space to entertain guests unless you have them sit on your bed). They think I’m still living with this friend, so they continue to not visit me. (And they both work pretty full schedules, so they don’t have time to anyway.)
If they suspected something, they would have said something. My dad is not the type to keep quiet about these things.
Well, my question still stands, though: Is what you’re doing unheard of, then? Do you not have friends or acquaintances that are doing something similar?
And are you and your family in Seoul, or some smaller, possibly more conservative town? Or would you say that it doesn’t matter, throughout ROK? Or is this just your particular family, and is the issue really not so much about Korean culture as your folks specifically (and the OP’s, I guess).
(I guess I kind of ask this for personal reasons, too, because I’ve been considering a rather generous contract with Pagoda, but maybe the atmosphere would be too conservative for me.)
It’s not unheard of, but it’s usually done by people like me - those who have been Westernized. Either that or by those of “lower” social class.
We live in Seoul (well, my parents live near Seoul, I live in the city). Seoul is the most liberal part of Korea by far, and opposing unmarried couples living together is not a particularly conservative position in Korea. I would say it’s the default position. Most people live with their parents right up until they get married.
If you are a foreigner working in Korea, the fact that our society is conservative will only personally affect you if you end up dating or marrying a Korean girl.
How about, “Because we love them even when they are annoying. And for parents specifically, because they literally created us and raised us and gave us whatever start we have in life.”
In Taiwan, if there’s an unmarried son or daughter living in their own place in another city, it’s generally understood that if the mom or dad has occasion to visit the city, then son/daughter’s place will be available to them to sleep over, probably with minimal notice.
Your willing to extend them a courtesy they WON’T extend to you? :dubious: And the canard,“I brought you into the world, I can take you out of it”, doesn’t hold up IRL. So JUST BECAUSE they spawned you, they get a say in your adult decisions? Decisions which won’t efffect their dialy lives, and frankly, are NONE OF THEIR EVER LOVING BUSINESS!
From the Korean* POV (as I understand it), their way of doing things is the only way for it to be reciprocal.
The parent gives the child life.
They work hard and sacrifice to ensure that the child receives the best possible education - this means school plus musical instrument training plus a couple more extracurricular activities.
They do everything possible to ensure that their child succeeds in every way, no matter what they have to do or say or give up.
They will continue to do all this for their entire lives.
That is their half of the reciprocity.
In return for the parent’s gifts of life, dedication, and devotion, the child is responsible for taking full advantage of their parents’ sacrifices. They must not only to complete everything they attempt, but excel.
They must honor and respect their parents, accepting guidance from them and helping them whenever they need assistance.
They must not do anything that would reflect badly on their parents or their family.
They must take care of their parents once the parents are elderly and unable to care for themselves.
They must continue to do all this for their entire lives.
That is their half of the reciprocity. If they fail to do this, they have not held up their part of the bargain.
Can you see how this works?
*and other Asian, though in my experience it’s often strongest among the Koreans and Chinese.
Well, after reading all the drama in this thread I’d certainly think twice before doing so. 
Sure, fair enough:
1st, backround of my parents: Mom, (60) the second oldest of 5, currently (and likely permanently) estranged from a sister and sister-in-law, over events in the aftermath of her mother’s death. (I randomly bumped into the sil at the “Y” several months back) I have a cousin I haven’t seen in years (randomly bumped into HER in Boston one night) was SAHM for most of my childhood.
Dad (60)-baby, by eight years, of 5. Evidently (based on their behavior now) not as well off as my maternal gp’s (neither were rich, upper-working class would be my guess) (his mom was my Nana)
Oldest brother-Just turned 41 (called on b-day, suspect I’m the only one), has 3 kids (B, 2 G) Currently estranged from family, due to hurtful comments made by his wife, who IMO, my mother NEVER liked, because evidently the hurtful words were the culmination of a long term pattern. Oh, BTW, about 15 years ago, he OD’ed on drugs. Something we suspect his wife lords over him. REALLY want the families to reconcile: 1. to get them back in the fold, and selfishly, 2. so I won’t lose 2 potential groomsmen and 2 flower girls.
Other Older Brother- He’s 37, wife 2 kids, (Sebastian’s dad). MANY years ago (I’d guess 20) He got EXTREMELY drunk, was brought back to our house, and was brought to the hospital to get stomach pumped. Shortly thereafter, went into Air Force (enlisted) Has traveled the world, ended up at Otis AFB on Cape Cod providing pilot support. (his pilots patrolled Ground Zero after 9/11) AFAIK, he’s really settled down, and his wife gets along FAMOUSLY with the family. (don’t have to worry about losing my ring-bearer 
)
Me- 33, single, no kids (or prospects for that matter) Adopted as an infant, due in large part to my biological parents being told me having Spina Bifida would mean I’d leaving a meaningless, sequestered, existence. From what I was told, my parents were told that the state would handle any/all financial issues accrued in the rearing of me. Of course, the state backed out! :rolleyes:
As you can imagine, my adolescence was not like my siblings, or any other able-bodied person, for that matter. Due to this, I never developed a love or social life, never held down the typical HS part-time job, I don’t drive (my disability isn’t totally to blame), so my choices for school and living are limited. After my sophmore year of High School, due partly to academic issues, but more motivated by my lack of a personal life, and life skills, too, I began the process of transferring to a school for students with disabilities (I live next to campus now). I didn’t transfer until after my Junior year of HS. Now, along the way, I had met a girl, whom I fruitlessly pursued for 5 years. IMO, my disability wasn’t the problem, the problem was she was more interested in becoming valedictorian, and getting into Harvard. While at the school for disabled students, I applied to public housing, unfortunately, I picked places people actually want live, so I moved back home after graduation. A couple of years later, I got the opportunity to move into such an apartment, but my parents convinced me to reject the opportunity, a mistake I have rued since. You see, as part of my SSI, my parents were entitled to a % of it, and as I indicated above, the state screwed my parents over, so my father, who also scrutinized every nickel I did spend, lest there wouldn’t be enough for his cut. So he needed his back! (until I got my cell phone in my name, he was also anal about being reinbursed for paying my bill) My 1st few years of college (after my mom hijacked and ghostwrote, without my knowledge or consent, my admissions essay) I got a workstudy position, primarily to shut my father up about being around the house too much. This was a HUGE mistake! The position was such that scheduling classes around the position was difficult, if not impossible (even they'd concede this IMO), meaning during the spring semester, I was basically a night student. I stupidly scheduled what should've been a fairly easy, striaghtforward class 30 minutes after my position ended, but the RIDE almost NEVER got me there b4 the halfway mark of the class. My life slowly, but surely, went straight into the crapper. (I ended up with IIRC 2 bad grades and an inc.) Mainly due to: never acquiring the multi-tasking skill in life, and also meeting female colleagues at the workstudy position, and wanting to "dip my pen in the company ink" and being rebuffed (twice, actually, once during the school year, and once during summer, when we worked 5 days/wk) (of course, never dating as a teen, I didn't learn how to find apropriate gfs) Stupidly, I wanted to return to the program, but in a meeting held shortly after 9/11 (which already had me depressed), I was told I was not welcomed back. This just deepened my depression, and I wasted a semester on campus, basically a shell of myself. I eventually had a health crisis that caused me to lose a semester at college, making my state all the worse. Around this time, I made a half-hearted suicide attempt. After more lost time at school, my parents moved to the Cape, and I lived with them for a summer, having my most productive academic period in 2 years. Unfortunately, this living arrangement couldn't be longterm, so I moved in with my brother (then 23), and several roomies. You can guess how a bunch of 20-something single guys spend there off-time. This was also not a wheelchair friendly environment, and my parents also dropped the ball on helping me compensate, food and -wise. Another health crisis erupted (same as above) landing me in nursing homes for 4 years (most of this looking for viable housing). After being discharged, I moved into my current apartment, almost 2 years ago, and my health has been near its best in years.
Younger brother (31, former roomie)-Between jobs at this moment. Unmarried childless. Used to work at the main store of the most popular furniture chain in region, until a workplace injury. We were roomies as kids, so are fairly close, get along quite well, especially now that we don’t live together. Dunno if he resents me for it, but he got all the stuff done to him that, by all rights, should’ve been done to me. (If I ever find a women nuts enough to marry me, he’ll be the one telling everyone what a PITA I am)
Sister- (26, living with guy we all expect, and hope, is her future husband)-The only real friction we’ve had in our relationship was when I was 1st starting college, she was in middle school, so we’d fight over shower time, and our mutually short tempers. (she’s mellowed WAY more than I have) We get along wonderfully now IMO. When we are together, the biggest topic between me and my future brother-in-law: Poker, amd Yogi Bear (he’s a ranger)
I don’t think anyone in this thread said that anyone’s parents were threatening to kill their own kids, which your statement “I brought you into the world, I can take you out of it” strongly implies. So your input, quoted above, is completely out of context and kind of offensive.
I know I’m going to regret enjoining you and your shouting capitals, but…
I don’t know why you’re so passionate about this particular issue, given that you seem to know so little about the realities. If you are playing the role of the ideologue, then all you need to say is what the other ‘stand up for your rights’ posters have said and let it be - your opinion is on record.
On the other hand if you do truly want to change the world then get a real job in the real world where your real voice will make a real difference. Is that such a bad idea?
You “want”. Honestly, I am totally inclined not to answer you. I did answer you, but you simply won’t understand it. You are a person that will, I guess, smoke in front of your father, and have sex right in front of your mother, whether they want you to or not, because childishly, IT’S YOUR RIGHT.
However, I did answer once:
And I’ll add to this that they took me in and took me away from a bad situation (I am adopted). My father gave me his last name, a girl born out of wedlock, something that just isn’t done. They brought me to America. When I was a kid life was almost perfect…all the drama didn’t start until I was fourteen. You are saying I should forget everything for the previous ten years and only concentrate on the latter years. Well, for a long time I did do that.
The bottom line is, I don’t want to keep the bitterness. It only hurts me.
And this is my last post in the thread. OP, you see how difficult your decision is. I wish you the best of luck. From what I know, Korean parents are even tougher.
Don’t over-romanticize what you didn’t get. I’m on good terms with my mother, but I don’t feel I could discuss aging issues with her. It would make her feel very old, to know that her children were dealing with those issues, and that would probably upset her. So, despite being on good terms with her, I don’t discuss those things with her.
Nobody in my mom’s generation in my family is much of a cook, so that’s out, too. They grew up in the era of convenience foods, so that’s not so surprising. My grandmother was a very good cook, and my mom’s brother was a very good baker, so I suspect Mom felt a little overshadowed in that department, and never really tried to develop cooking skills.
And, of course, every mother has her own personality, and there’s no guarantee that it will be anything like her children’s motherly ideal. Just like there’s no guarantee that your kid’s personality will be what you’d want him or her to have.
These issues are not unique to any particular culture. In fact, I suspect every culture that has ever existed has dealt with them.
OK, let me try again as to why I’m willing to put up with this. The family I grew up in (my parents, sister) are the people I know will always, always have my back against the world. They will always be on my side against the world. I think most tight-knit Korean families would agree with this.
Now, yeah, they are frequently not on my side when it’s me against them, or me against their irrational prejudices. And yeah, that’s detrimental to my mental health, sure. But having these people who are there for me – like, while we’re having a knock-down drag-out screaming fight I know without a shadow of a doubt that if a lion jumped out of the bushes while we were fighting my parents would both sacrifice themselves to save me without a question – this is more valuable to me (and, I imagine, most Korean families feel the same way) than almost everything – if I thought it was seriously interfering with my self-concept, for example (which, uh, not really), or if (as I’ve said before) it was between them and my husband, who is the person who not only has my back against the world but is my life partner and the guy who is on my side even when I’m battling against myself – if that was the choice, my husband all the way.
But the extreme value I place on this, I think, is what people are saying shorthand (at least sometimes) when they say, “My mom makes me miserable – but she’s family!”
Also, Maggie the Ocelot has it absolutely right about the reciprocity (and said it better than I did). Both sides are meant to sacrifice their entire lives to the other. The problem is that Western culture prizes individuality over self-subsuming to the collective, and I do too. My parents wanted me to grow up that way, but I don’t think they realized all the implications.
Anne Neville, in case Anaamika doesn’t come back, I don’t imagine that it’s about those specific things. My mom turns out to be fairly useless at discussing ageing issues or cooking (she thinks mixing the contents of two different boxes is “cooking”) or my childhood (which she over-romanticizes), but I love getting her perspective (when she doesn’t overload it with demands) because she does have an interesting way of looking at things and she does have interesting stories and she can be fun to talk to, and I don’t have too many older women in my life who I’m close enough to to fill that role. (Her description of Bridges of Madison County – “If she’s so bored, why have an affair? Why not just go to the library?” – still cracks me up every time I think of it.)
Thanks, Anaamika and raspberry hunter. I am understanding a little more.
Two messages:
To non-Westerners: When you come to America, the expectation is that you “become American”. Is this fair? I dunno, but it’s the expectation of a majority of Americans.
To people who so easily forgive/look past your parent’s parental transgressions: How do you do it? Why do you do it? Shouldn’t mistreatment, even by family, be a deal-breaker?
I think it’s fair. I think my parents would agree. However, I think it’s also fair to keep in mind that it is a hard transition to make. I think you should also keep in mind that Hazel and the OP’s parents live in Korea, so this point isn’t relevant for them.
How: I think about what it would be like to be in my parents’ shoes. I think it would be pretty difficult, and sometimes heartbreaking. Reading Jhumpa Lahiri’s fiction on immigrants to the US and their mindset has helped me a lot here. I was in my 30’s, and had my own baby, before I really started understanding what it must have been like for them, and how difficult, and the struggles they must have to understand what their children are becoming… I imagine when the Little One is a teenager I’ll understand even more.
Why: I am really at a loss to figure out what more I could say than I already have to show you that the mistreatment my family gives me is far outweighed by the benefits of a tightly-knit family. Well, I think you may get that in my case; I will go as far as saying I think that’s the case for many of these non-Western families. In cases where the mistreatment is worse than the benefits, people do break with their families (like Anaamika), but there’s a cost there too.
raspberry-my point about “Americanization”, the OP lives in the U.S. and her parents need to understand that she’s not in Korea anymore.
Like you (and others) I give up explaining my position on the latter point.
And it may help you to understand that the point above doesn’t matter to her parents.
Many/most folks have a hard time completely rebelling against their parents no matter how much trouble they are. And many/most folks are willing to accept that as part of the package deal, taking the good with the bad. I honor my parents not just for what they do for me, but for what they’ve done for me and would do for me if needed.